Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipino-American executive leadership coach and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the U.S. Air Force. I'm also the author of The Myth of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership. It's based on the lessons learned by many women of color leaders, including those on this podcast. We talk with successful CEOs and C-suite women leaders of color and learn about their leadership journeys. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. If you're a woman or a woman of color who wants to sit at that table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I am thrilled to be talking with Sheena Yap Chan. Today, she's a Wall Street Journal, best selling author, speaker, trainer, strategist and podcaster, and she has a podcast and also a book called The Tao of Self Confidence, where she interviews women about their journeys to self confidence. I love the statistics that you shared, that even though women represent over half of the US workforce, only 35% have senior leadership positions, and of that percentage, only 2.7% of Asian women were seen in management roles. So her book the Tao of Self Confidence and her upcoming book, Bridging the Confidence Gap is so important to address this leadership gap. I'm very, very thrilled also that Sheena talks about not just women leaders in general, but specifically Asian women leaders. Sheena, there's so much to get into in this podcast. TGrowing up in Toronto in the 90s, not having representation in the media really stunted my confidence. I felt like I wasn't good enough, because there was no one out there that looked like me in the media who were doing amazing things. So for me, representation was really important, and when I first started the podcast, I was also dealing with my own confidence issues. I wasn't feeling good about myself, and I really was looking for resources that cater to Asian women specifically, but there weren't any. And makes sense, because we've always been taught not to talk about what we go through. Just hold in our feelings, never talk about it, and of course, that never helps. And then again, representation was important. So I started the podcast out of those two reasons to have better representation and to have a support system, right? Because a lot of us feel like we're the only ones dealing with our own issues, not realizing, as women, we actually deal with similar issues, we just don't talk about it. So being able to relate to all these women on the podcast really helps, because you're not alone. hank you so much for being here.

Sheena: Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here today.

Analiza: Sheena, I want to start because you have had this media presence as a speaker, podcaster and writer for you personally. What was the impetus? I know there's many moments in a leader's life, but, was there one or one in particular that you really want to speak about self confidence?

Sheena:

Analiza: Sheena, I want to talk about your identity, because Asian is a big umbrella, and I'd love to hear how do you identify, and how has that when you think about Asian women, are there any particular pieces of your identity that, oh, that in general really hits the theme of what you've heard in the podcast and in your book?Or are there things that are specific to your identity that are a little bit different?

Sheena: Especially being an Asian woman, we've always been taught to show up a certain way. I mean, I come from a Chinese and Filipino background, so that's like twice the Asian I guess, you're taught to just do as you're told, never make any noise, stay in the background, and so it's hard for us to be seen or or show up, right? And then there's another thing that, generally, as women, we're not taught to promote ourselves. Put ourselves out there. It's not polite to brag about your achievements, but yeah, men do the same thing, and they get praise for it. So that also kind of helped with what I thought of, how we should show up, never showing anything, never sharing anything, never talking about our achievements and feeling like we always need permission before we go out there and show up or just promote our products and services. So that, for me, kind of shaped my own confidence, right? Because I always felt like, if I don't follow the rules, then I'm not good enough especially being in like the Philippines.

Analiza: Let's talk about that. We are both Filipino. You're a part Filipino. I am a full Filipino. From my perspective, Filipinos have been really good at assimilation. How did that support maybe our ascension into these C suite rules or maybe hold us back?

Sheena: I think, especially in the workplace, right? We've always been told to work hard, right? Work hard, work hard, and you will get there, right? Work hard, and you'll get that promotion, work hard and you'll get to the top. I mean, of course, part of it, we do have to work hard, but we've never been taught to work smart, right? Any Asian professional, we're not taught to network with other people, right or not. We're not taught to have relationships with our co workers or a boss, just having a relationship outside, like maybe going out to a bar after work and just having a chat or being invited into like, a barbecue or like a restaurant or a birthday, because those little things actually do matter, right? That's where people can get to know you a little bit more so if you're just working hard all your life, and sometimes that stops us from getting into leadership positions, because sometimes, sometimes we're only seen as hard workers and not leadership material. So, and I've seen that time and time again, right? Like we work really hard, we don't make any trouble, we don't say anything, and then we're still in that same position, because we're always still seen as the hard worker. So for me, I think it's important, especially being visible in the workplace, to learn how to network with other people, to learn to have those relationships, right? I remember I was talking to a friend who actually did invite, like her boss's boss out for coffee. And so she's like a half hour coffee chat. And actually a lot of her co-workers told her to cancel it because they thought it was a bad idea. And so she was conflicted, because she didn't know if she should cancel it. He already said yes, he already said yes, and it would be a disservice if you canceled it on him, especially if it's only like half an hour of your time. I say just go for it and just have that chat like nothing bad will happen out of it. So she was able to do it. She went through with it, and she was just happy that she did right, because now she has that relationship, and her boss's boss can see her maybe in a different light, right? Maybe he's seen this quality that she has that could be a leadership position or something else for the company, that can help them grow.

Analiza: So I hear from you, Sheena, that there's a few things. One is that hard work does not equate to success, that there's another game to play, and you and I both have podcasts and both have books. And so this idea of the other game to play includes relationships, getting to know people as people, not just as worker bees. That helps elevate our whole whole persona as a leader, not just as a worker bee, and you specifically talk about in your books, confidence. So I want to go there, because confidence is to be more confident, show up more confident, speak more confidently. People are so vague about what they even mean by confidence. And so what does it mean when you talk about confidence? How does one show up as a confident leader, especially as an Asian woman, as a woman, what are we? What are those myths that we might have that's really not helping us to show up confidently?

Sheena: Being confident it's just knowing that you have the capabilities to make it happen, right? Even if you have no clue how you're going to do it. Because I think as women, we tend to feel like we have to know everything before we make that first move, versus just making that move and figuring it out as we go. That's how we get results. That's what men do all the time, right? They don't know half the time, half the time, what they're doing, but they know that they have enough confidence or capabilities to go out there and figure it out. And so in the workplace, it's about solving problems, right? And as women, we're great at problem solving, especially if you have kids, you're solving problems every single minute. There's always something that's going to happen, and you have to, like, pivot or Figure Figure it out on the spot. And if we took those same skills in the workplace or in entrepreneurship, and just imagine what we can accomplish, right? Are we going to make mistakes? Yes, right? Because that's just part of life. And I know it's not always as easy, because women get more flat than men. Unfortunately, we have to show up a certain way. But if we don't go out there and, like, dismantle these myths, then we're just in the same cycle all over again, right? Like as women, if we go out there and forge our own path, or go out there and show up, maybe go that, go for that promotion, or create a successful business, we're always labeled as too much is too forward, is too ambitious, yet, if a man did that, he's confident. So it's like this double standard that we still face today, right? And so what do we do? I mean, we have to learn to push through these labels so that we can normalize women being seen as confident versus women being seen as too ambitious.

Analiza: It's interesting how being confident is going to be uncomfortable. We have to name that because one we're doing things that are not taught, Be quiet, be in the background. Just put your head down. So when we're sitting, standing out and saying, I can do this, I believe in myself that is going to be uncomfortable, and yet we must, right? We must. The second thing I heard you say is that there is a piece of confidence where we already actually know how to do it, and we do it really well. And so it is actually not a farce to say I can't do it because we have. And so there's a standing in who you are already. So I love that so much. And the third to know, there is a double standard out there, so we can't just think to ourselves, oh, the judgment. There's no judgment. It's just in my head, there's going to be judgment, and we need to push past that. So I love that so much because it actually allows us to say it's going to be uncomfortable. I can do it. And yes, I need a paved pass, because there will be judgment, and I will succeed. I will succeed. So it's beautiful. Sheena, you also talk about, in your book, about awakening beyond trauma, and there's a connection there. And sometimes when we talk about leadership or we talk about results, that's not the first thing that people will mention right trauma or our own experiences. And so can you talk about why that is something that you headline in your book, and why it's so important that women address this?

Sheena: A lot of people will always ask me, How do I get more confidence? How do I increase my confidence? How do I boost my confidence? And I can show you a million ways to boost your confidence. It's not a problem, right? I can tell you what to do, but if you don't work through the root cause as to why you're feeling a little self confidence, then every other strategy they'll teach you will not work, because you're still holding back, right? And that comes from our trauma, right? We go through all sorts of trauma, whether it's childhood trauma, intergenerational trauma, sexual trauma, PTSD, like, all those things affect us as a leader, because if we don't work through them or heal through it, it's going to control us. And then we're in this never ending cycle that we're feeling that we're not good enough, we can't go out there and be the leader that we're meant to be. So it's really important to work through our traumas, to find the tools and resources to learn, and to heal from it. And yes, it's not easy. It's going to be very ugly because we're working with our traumas, or that will make us feel uncomfortable, that will trigger us, but it really is important, right? So when the people ask me that question, I tell them, instead of giving you the strategies. Let's figure out what's really stopping you, right? Like, for me, I mean, I failed kindergarten for coloring outside the lines in the Philippines, right? Like, can you imagine failing kindergarten because I colored a photo outside the lines and because I didn't do the proper work? It led into my adult life thinking I was always a constant failure, and I never knew. I never knew why I thought that, and I realized that it was because I failed kindergarten for coloring out southern lines and everything I did, I just felt like a failure. So it took me, like, 35 years to figure that out. But that's okay. It's better late than never, and I can share that story with other people. And then also, we're not only carrying our own traumas, we're carrying the traumas of our parents, our grandparents. People say that intergenerational trauma goes four generations deep. I feel Asians, it goes way deeper, right? So we're not only dealing with intergenerational trauma. I also feel like we're dealing with historical trauma, right, especially as Asian women, we just went through a lot, right? Like a lot of stuff that contributes to having low self confidence, like in China, back in the day, men were allowed to have multiple wives and even concubines, and the reason for that was there's just more chances of having a boy that will carry the family name. But imagine the trauma women go through because of that right, feeling like they're just a baby maker, they're just an object, they're just a number that someone's collecting. And so that brings their worth down, because they're just seen as that, versus like, thinking, No, you're more than that, right? You have skills and talents that can help make this world a better place. So this really shows up for a lot of us, because sometimes we feel like we're not good enough because we're not treated a certain way. And so it's really important to ask your parents, your grandparents, maybe some of the stuff they've been through, and I know that's easier said than done, because they will never tell a soul, and it's really hard to get those stories out of them. If you can get as much as you can, that would be great, because they'll help you understand why you are going through a certain issue, or why you're feeling slow self confidence. And I'm not an expert, this is really just learning to interview so many women and seeing what some of the patterns are, right? That gives them little self confidence and trauma is something that we never talk about, but it's really important to talk about mental health, right? Mental health is such a big taboo in Asian culture, but it's really necessary to talk about it, because we're going to have mental health challenges, right? Like myself included, every day I'm not always confident.

Analiza: That's great. As an executive coach, when I hear people often struggle with confidence, it's this sense of I'm not worthy, and where does that come from? As much as we can have strategies we have to understand where that came from and then be able to reprocess that I'm not a therapist, but encouraging them to see a therapist and then having a new narrative. But if we don't address that root cause, you're absolutely right there, we'll just layer on strategies that are just band aids. I want to talk about Sheena for you, because you have written books, you have a podcast, you interview people, and yet you have days where you're not feeling confident. And I'd love to hear here's a day I wake up doubting myself, and I'm curious if Sheena, what are your go to tactics to help boost your confidence?

Sheena: Yeah, for me, I do say, like, three affirmations, because when I go through moments of self doubt like this helps me just kind of get back and say I'm doing okay. So I just say three things. I say, I am love, I am worthy, I am enough, and I keep telling myself that until I feel better. And of course, saying that stuff to yourself is a little bit uncomfortable. If you've never done it before, it's gonna feel weird because it's something brand new. But the more you keep doing it, the better you get at it, right? So that's one thing that I do. I also surround myself with people who will lift me up, because you don't have to be on this journey by yourself, right? Having support is so important, and I know in Asian culture, we're taught that asking for help is a sign of weakness or a handout. But it's not right, like you don't have to be alone on this journey. There's so many tools and resources out there, there's books, there's podcasts, like the ones we have, there's support groups, there's women's organizations, women's circles that you can tap into and have that support, or even your friends and family, right? So I think who you surround yourself with is really important, and then working on your personal development every single day is important, right? It's like, if you want to be fit and healthy, you work out, right? You work out your body. You exercise wheat rate. It's the same concept with your mind. You have to work on your mindset every single day, right? Will you always be positive? No, definitely not, because there's also such a thing as toxic positivity, but at least it helps us rewire our brain to see things in a different perspective, in a more positive light, and realize that this journey isn't like rainbows and butterflies. It's actually a hot mess, and it's totally okay. And I think sometimes social media paints this like a perfect picture of what our life should look like when in reality, like it's a hot mess. That's why reality TV shows thrive so well, because everyone's a hot mess in it, right? They're not going to watch it if everything's picture perfect, because they can't relate to that picture perfect scene that they can relate to the hot mess, right?

Analiza: I appreciate normalizing that we have, one, it's normal to have a lack of confidence. And two, we can do steps that are within our grasp to change even intergenerational lack of confidence. I was just talking with my mom, Sheena, and I said, Woody, what is one thing that you wish you knew before you died? And she said, I wish that I knew it was enough. And it was so shocking to me to hear that from my mother, as someone who's worked on that for myself, and to see there's so much connection with our parents and grandparents for generations, or even more, that this colonial mentality still still lives on. So I love that. I love that. Sheena, are you ready for lightning? Round questions?

Sheena: Sure.

Analiza: Chocolate or vanilla?

Sheena: Chocolate.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Sheena: Takeout.

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Sheena: Climb a mountain.

a: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Sheena: No.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of one to ten,ten being Mariah Carey?

Sheena: Three.

Analiza: What's a recent book you read?

Sheena: I had to read my own book just because I had to do the edits. So my latest book, my upcoming book, bridging the confidence gap.

Analiza: And what's your favorite way to practice self care?

Sheena: Just even spending five times five minutes to myself, whether it's just looking at videos on Instagram or just doing nothing, that, for me, is self care.

Analiza: What's a good professional development you've done?

Sheena: Practice my speaking.

Analiza: What is your definition of a boss mama?

Sheena: I think someone who just knows that they can take control of their destiny, regardless of the circumstances.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Sheena: Be okay to make mistakes.

Analiza: And then where can we find you, like LinkedIn. Also your website.

Sheena: Yeah, so you can check out my website, www.sheenayapchan.com . I have a free quiz to unlock your self confidence, personality. You can also order my book, The tao of self confidence on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles and other book book retailers globally, bridging the confidence gap that is available for pre order on the same sites as well. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tiktok, YouTube, but if you forgot anything that I mentioned, you can literally Google my name, Sheena Yap Chan, because I'm the only Sheena Yap Chan on the internet. And also, also you can check out the Tao self confidence podcast on all major podcasting platforms.

Analiza: And last question, Sheena, do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts to share?

Sheena: It's okay that you're not perfect, because perfection is an illusion, and none of us are perfect. So I think the more we can just show up as our imperfect self, that's how we can also build confidence and just soar. So I hope that is something that you take away in 2025

Analiza: Sheena, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and your experiences. Really excited about your upcoming book and congratulations.

Sheena: Thank you and thanks again for having me. It was such a blessing.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time to hear today's podcast. 3 things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, you can get a free chapter of my book, The Myth of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership at analizawolf.com/freechapter. And lastly, if you're interested in executive coaching, please reach out to me at analiza@analizawolf.com. Thank you so very much.