Analiza: Analiza Hi, I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Asian American, mama of two kiddos. I went from being a burned out mama to being a Boss Mama, being a boss at work home and play. I'm on a mission to help more women be Boss Mamas. If you want to thrive at work without sacrificing family or self care, you're in the right place. I'm launching my next cohort of women leaders starting in January. The online course is eight weeks and has helped achieving women get the balanced joy and fulfillment they deserve. Go to Analizawolf.com/bossmamas to learn more. Now let's get into today's show.

Many schools are in crisis, trying to figure out how to keep teachers and leaders and also trying to keep kids learning what can be done. Today I'm talking with Elise Darwish, the CEO of Ensemble Learning. Elise started her career as a teacher and then became the principal of the first charter school in California, and the second charter school in the country. Elise helped start Aspire Public Schools as the Chief Academic Officer which she grew to 38 schools in California, and Tennessee, it became a high performing charter management organization. She experienced firsthand what it was like to be a new mom, and how hard it was to balance both work and also see her daughter. She eventually requested getting to work from home a couple days a week so that she could see her daughter. These types of experiences helped lead her to start Ensemble Learning because of our mission to have really good quality schools, especially for underserved kids. Elise shares with us some ideas about what schools can do now to keep great talent and also keep kids learning. I'm really excited for you to meet this Boss Mama.

So Elise we are talking about this idea of having conversations and normalizing mistakes. So I'd love to open with that for you. What does that mean for you?

Elise: Sure. So I was the first principal in our district when I was in a district to get pregnant and had needed maternity leave. And they had no idea what to do, how to do it, how to get coverage. And it really made me realize one, just how I wasn't even that young, I think I was 30. Just how much I was going to have to really be more of a pioneer than I ever thought I was because I thought women had broken the glass ceiling. And I didn't really see anyone around me until I actually got to a book club of other women who were messing up and didn't know how to be a parent and, you know, wanted to take a break from their kids. And it wasn't all love, love, love, happiness all the time and really needed a break and really needed love to work but really sometimes needed a break from work. And so I really think when people tell stories, when women tell stories about how hard it is, and when they screw up and the joy they have as well. I think it really humanizes and takes away from this idealization of being both a mom and a working mom. It's crazy. And it's great. And it's hard.

Analiza: So true. Because often I think when we look around, it's, I can manage it, I have all the things I can juggle all the balls, I'm strong, and yet, often, it's not that way inside. And so I really appreciate us being willing to share and you being willing to share both the triumphs, but also those tough times, so that we can all feel like it's okay that sometimes we need a break from work from our kids, just to be by ourselves and have some semblance of remembering who we are. So I love opening with that. And actually want to take us back Elise, did you always think that you would be an academic teacher or principal. Did you have this dream in your head when you're young?

Elise: So I knew probably in high school that I wanted to work with small children. I loved the honesty of five year olds. I just loved being with them. And I felt it just made me happy to be with an unbridled kind of enthusiasm and honesty, and so easy to fix what was upsetting them. It was just a much simpler way. So I knew I always wanted to be a teacher. My mom was a high school teacher and was not thrilled that I also wanted to be a teacher but yeah, I knew I always wanted to be in schools.

Analiza: Why wasn't she thrilled?

Elise: Well, I don't think she felt particularly respected as a teacher, she worked really hard. She taught high school English. So she does what most teachers do: bring home all the papers, and you score the papers at night. And I think she just wanted me to have a less intense life.

Analiza: I mean, being a teacher is so hard. I had no idea when I was a student how much of all the homework that I was doing at work for as a student was giving my teacher work to do at night. So that's a lot, especially as an English teacher grading all those papers and reading all those essays, making all those comments. So, yes, but you ended up being a teacher then Elise. Fast forward. And I want to go to you starting one of the first charter schools, if not the first charter school, right in California, first charter in California, second in the nation. That's crazy. Yeah, so bring us back. Because this is groundbreaking for a country. And you did it with dance, I'd love to give you the history. So how did you start? How did you not go to a traditional district?

Elise: Sure. So Don, and I tell our story that we got a professional blind date, we both knew a woman who I had taught with and she was making grants now. And she met Don who was a superintendent. And so she had us read grant applications together and had us partner. And we really hit it off. So when he had started the first charter school, he called me up and said, Hey, come and be an administrator, I got my administrative credential. And I really had no idea what I was walking into. I've done this twice. Now I did it when I became a principal. And then when I followed him to be a Chief Academic Officer, just kind of walked in and said, Okay, let's figure this out. And it was great. And it was crazy. Yeah, again, not a lot of paths. So nobody knew what a charter school was. Nobody knew what it should do or what it could do. But again, tons of work. And really great.

Analiza: And can you tell me then just for people who don't know charter schools very well, quick definition of what it is?

Elise: Sure, it's a public school that has a contract with the district that they'll have higher accountability with higher flexibility.

Analiza: So you're starting this movement? And what is life like? You don't have kids yet? Right?

Elise: Right. I didn't have kids. I had my daughter while I was a principal there. So our school was largely parent, very parent active, and it was in a middle to high class area. And so you had lots and lots of parents who wanted to volunteer, but also wanted to have input. When I first got there, it was really about I don't want to say protecting the educators but really clarifying what are the educators in the classroom doing and what are the parents doing? And how can we make this work together? And then one of the cool things that we ended up with where they were kind of like electives, and so parents would come in, and the students would have parent volunteers that we had coordinator, they would pick classes of things they were interested in. And then during that time, teachers got to plan. So teachers got every Wednesday morning, they got a full day of planning, with the kids being engaged in other what would now kind of be maker spaces, I think called, but we got to be pretty creative around it.

Analiza: That's one of the special features of charter schools is that there is flexibility to do out of the box thinking to involve our parents in ways I bet they're really excited to share their passion or skill, and then engage with their students in a creative call maker space. So I love that you did that because I saw different maker spaces. And to know that it originated with schools like yours is really exciting.

Elise: It was a great time for kids to explore different things that we could have never offered them. And teachers got to plan and parents loved it. It was great, it was a lot of coordination by my partner I worked with, but it was great.

Analiza: So at least during this time, you're working a lot and you become a principal and also have your first kid so talk to us about that experience.

Elise: So as I said, they had no kind of idea what to do with this person having a baby and being a principal. So I found my own temporary replacement. I knew I wanted to come back. I have the seminal moment where I knew I wanted to come back. But I was sitting there nursing my daughter who was four months. And I was watching Martha Stewart and she was spray painting walnuts, gold, and I thought, Hmm, maybe I should do that. And that was my big aha that I wanted to go back to work that I needed to go back to work. So when I went back, it was also a commute so I had an hour commute. I would sometimes leave my daughter and not see her away. And that was tough. And so I went to Don Shelby, who was the superintendent and said, I want to try something, we have another, it was kind of an assistant principal. And I want to see if I can work at home a day or two, because we did a lot of grant applications. If I can do great things, if I can just work at home a day or two a week, and have my other administrator, like a VP, support the school, and I'll do all things I'll be on, I remember sitting in my basement in the laundry room. And he said, Yeah, let's try it. And so I got the parents to sign off on our local governance council, and it worked. And so two days a week, I had more balance with my daughter, and then three days a week, we're a lot more about work.

Analiza: I mean, I have to highlight here for people who may not know that the idea of working from home, pre-pandemic, as a school staff person is quite revolutionary, and to ask your boss, male, and for him to say, Yes, I think that sounds like a great idea. And then to talk to the parent community and get signed off there, too, is such a sign of trust. And obviously, it had a lot to do with you, Elise, but it's just not seen or done. So I think, a testament to the possibility of thinking outside the box, just like you're mentioning earlier with having the parents involved, that you can still be effective, and not necessarily follow all those old school rules. So my question for you Elise, is, while you had this community of people backing you and saying that's a great idea to be at home with your daughter, you shouldn't see your daughter, make sure you know, we don't want to go through a day and not see her. How did you get the teachers to also agree because you know, they don't get the chance, I'm assuming, to go home? I'm not sure if any of them are parents, but how did you manage that culture with them?

Elise: I would say two things. So one, we were a very tight group, it was almost you know, how you bond with people, when you're in intense situations, the first year or two of the school was very intense. And we were incredibly bonded and gave each other very kind, honest, loving feedback. And so in one sense, I think they just trusted me, and they trusted my VP that it was going to be okay. And if it didn't work, I was going to come back. And then the other thing was, and I think this is, again, I think I was just a little naive, but it is hard to find at least someone who would fit the school who had run it. And so I think there was a little bit of fear around, oh, if we don't give this to you, you may leave. And it's hard to find. And it's especially hard to find principals who could both lead in a new way. And so I think there was also a little bit of hope if we wanted to keep her, which I didn't realize at the time, but I think if we want to keep her we have to try this.

Analiza: If they had said No, at least what would you have done?

Elise: I probably would have done it for another year and then left.

Analiza: Yeah, I mean, we’ve got to state this because as someone who has been in education as long as you have, and then I've also been in education, there's a real war for talent. Yeah, and not, I'm talking even pre pandemic, so not listening to our people is going to hinder the movement. Because if we don't keep our talent, then we're constantly training new people who are going to burn insurance through. So our kids end up getting impacted anyway, because they don't have steady teachers. So this idea of sustainability is not just for you, at least for me, it's for our kids across the country. So I want to actually fast forward because that's the discussion I want to have with you. And you lead a consulting firm. Now, when you support schools in all of the different reforms like academics, operational, cultural, this idea of talent and flexibility. How do you advise or what types of studies or cases do you see coming up where people are trying to answer this question of supporting their talent, retaining their talent, but also keeping their eye on student growth?

Elise: So right now, I would say we're a little bit in crisis. I don't think there are common solutions. What I'm seeing is if people aren't flat out leaving or leaving the profession, they're unstressed leave, or they're taking long breaks. And I think what I would hope that people would do and would start thinking about is the long term so it may not be ideal to not have the principal on site five days a week. But if you want this principle for three years, five years, 10 years, let them work at home one day a week. I mean, we've just come so far with working at home with Zoom, I just think there has to be a balance. So I don't know what people have. I think right now everybody's kind of panicking around, not having staff, particularly around substitutes, which is an even bigger challenge. But I think people are going to start having to be creative. And I think the people who are going to lead it, the women, quite honestly, who say, This is what I need, here's what I'm thinking about. Let's try it. And maybe it's work at home one day a week, maybe it's every six weeks, I'm going to work at home for a week, I think there's different ways to do it. I don't see a lot of schools yet thinking creatively about it. I think they're still a little bit in a panic mode.

Analiza: It's really hard, there is a crisis, and we're trying to support our kids, our families, and our families are reaching out because it's not just an academic issue. There's real social, emotional issues and financial issues and job issues, health issues. So all of those are coming to people that they trust, often their teachers and their leaders. So it's a huge amount of stress. And for people who entered the profession wanting to help, it's hard to say, well, sorry, that's not in my job description. I can't help you with that. Right, not the tendency, right? It's not surprising then that there's breakdowns and mental health breakdowns, with people feeling so overwhelmed in a job that was already overwhelming.

Elise: The principal job is the hardest job in any school system. It is just intense. And if we can figure out how to support them, I think it could, the trickle effect could be big.

Analiza: So you mentioned at least that it's hard to think about these out of the box ideas when you're just in firefighting mode. If you could tell a school, try a couple things. And I'd love to hear it at different levels. Because I'm hearing you loud and clear for the principal's very, very important role. If that role is crumbling, it's not surprising that the rest of the school is going to feel a huge impact. Is there other types of strategies that you can recommend, maybe at the teacher level that could not to say this is a surefire way, but like a couple ideas about how to what they can do now.

Elise: I mean, I think so much of it is so at the teacher level, I just saw an actual tic toc the other day where a teacher was saying, if you want to keep me don't make me do lunch duty, don't make me do bus duty. And so it may be that the district can't find anyone to do it. And this really is their last choice. But I think any choice and flexibility you can give teachers, so I love doing lunch duty, and I did not enjoy doing recess duty. So maybe there's some choice around when you do it, if you do it, like let's bring the teachers in, figuring out if there are these extra duties, how they do them. Or let's bring the teachers in. I remember when I was at Aspire, one of the schools had a limit of copies of how many you could make. And so they were always kind of monitoring, do I have enough copies left for the week, and it just seemed like such a false barrier to put up? And so I think he got to go back to us teachers? What are the small things that we can do? That would make your life easier and bearable until we are able to staff up? You know, one of the things that is happening now is classes are getting split up when there isn't a sub. And so having people say, you know, letting a teacher say, is there one day a week, that you're getting such great instruction, that is not the day you want extra kids in your class, like, let's engage in the small things we can do, because the big things are not going to get switched in the next month. So I would say that both for teachers and principals. And principals have a lot of dependency on the system that can be pretty influential around not only their teachers, but also their working conditions, if they're talking to other principals about it. So I don't want to have a revolt. But if three principals came to me, and I'm the superintendent and said, here's what we'd like to do. We'd like to share each other's sites so that one day a week we can each work at home or stay in our office. I think the superintendent is going to be open to those but I think they're going to come from the people who want them and meet them and not necessarily from the top down.

Analiza: I think it's interesting that we get the best ideas from the people themselves who are hurting the most. And that we've got to trust that it won't be a venting session where they'll show up saying look at all the terrible things and instead say, here's what can be done and it doesn't have to mean okay, let's hire 15 million people and double salaries, it can actually be tactical things like, let's let me do recess and not lunch duty, let me have all the copies I need. And maybe we can get some parent volunteers, although parents are also being pretty stretched. But I really appreciate that because actually, that's a tactic that most schools can take even districts to have a listening tour or even a survey, right, if you could, you know, bring some ideas and and get that in the next weeks. It's possible to turn around quickly.

Elise: Yeah, we used to do town halls where the CEO would go to every school and say, Okay, what's keeping you, what's bugging you? Yeah, and some of it would end up being funding, which is fine. But I remember one school head, they were having an outbreak of lice, and they just couldn't get a handle on it. And just being able to, I don't remember how it got totally resolved. But right now, there's so much money in education. I think if they had one, if they could have hired a part time lice checker, every morning, who checked every kid, I think that would have made all the teachers so much happier. You just don't know if you don't ask what's bugging you?

Analiza: Literally, that case? Yeah. So at least I'm gonna expand our view right now, because we're talking specifically about talent and retention. Is there anything else about talent retention, you'd want to, especially during these times, as educators listen to try to find solutions, anything else that could support while not compromising our kids and their academics?

Elise: I think what we talk a lot when we go into classrooms and work with teachers and principals about having a warm demander, about having a teacher who's a warm demander, who, you know, no matter what this pert, this teacher cares for you is going to do everything they can to support you. And they're going to have high standards for what you do. And I think we've all had teachers who I, my freshman English teacher, worked for, like crazy, we wrote so many papers. And yet she had such enthusiasm and caring for us, I would have written 10 more papers because of that relationship. And it's so true in classrooms, it's so true in schools and systems and organizations, I'm going to kill myself, if I know that if I call you up and say I'm having a really bad day, or my mom is sick, I know that you have my back. It's this warm demand. I think organizations that have it, you know it and they do not lose people.

Analiza: It's interesting that you can do that with both kids and each other. Like, I can also say I care about you. And also you need to step up or I care about you. And of course take what you need so that you can you're okay, because we care about you more than just as a student or just more than a colleague who gets work done where people and right the whole picture matters.

Elise: Right? Right. And it's that trust in that relationship. But I don't want it to be that only everybody loves me, but kids aren't learning. Everybody loves me. And it's because it's really clear what is the best way to serve kids. And we're on the same page around how we're going to impact and serve kids.

Analiza: Great. Before we go to lightning round questions, at least anything else you'd want to share from either perspective, as an educator administrator, or even from the parent perspective, to shed light on what's going on and what can be done during this time.

Elise: I feel like I have made it sound simple. And it's not simple. It is complicated. It is complicated, both on the mom's side, and it is complicated on the work side. And the best thing that I used to just tell myself is sometimes some days work wins. And some days the kids win. And in the end, if I'm serving kids, and my kids are happy and feel loved and cared for, it's all going to be fine. But I don't want it to sound like I have this all I had it all figured out or have it all figured out. It is messy and complicated. And I have kind of the gift of time to look back about what worked and what didn't.

Analiza: Elise share that quick story about the store with us just to show that.

Elise: So when I was at Aspire, you know, it was tough. And I was coming out of the grocery store and I was having kind of this self talk like, I've got this Look at me. I even got to the grocery store. I got stuff for dinner, I've got dinner planned, and I had this great day at work. And I walked up and I walked up to my car and I realized I locked my keys in the trunk. And it was such a seminal moment where I thought I really don't have this and this is really not working because I can't even keep my keys with me. And that's when I ended up having to ask for changes but it's those small times where like, huh, this is really nuts. This is really not exactly what I think I want to do.

Analiza: Thanks for that Elise. Alright, we're gonna do some fun lightning round questions. First question is chocolate or vanilla?

Elise: Oh, chocolate. I don't know how people can answer vanilla. But I won't comment on other people's choices.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout,

Elise: Takeout.

Analiza: Climb a mountain or a jump from a plane?

Elise: When I was younger, it would have jumped from a plane. I would say now climb a mountain.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Elise: Absolutely not.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of one to 10-10? 10 Being Mariah Carey?

Elise: I'm two on actual skill. I'm at like an eight or a nine in enthusiasm.

Analiza: What's the recent good book you've read?

Elise: Don't usually read non fiction. But I just read a book called System Error about how technology is particularly social media. So it's super timely, about how their values have corrupted democracy. That sounds way more like highlighting than I usually read. But a friend of mine wrote it. So it is fascinating.

Analiza: What's your favorite way to practice self care?

Elise: Napping or reading.

Analiza: Any good professional development you've done?

Elise: I would say it's the best professional development I think I do in coaching conversations. Just talking to people where they are I think that's what gets them the farthest.

Analiza: What? See your definition of a Boss Mama?

Elise: Someone who does their best both with their kids and at work without guilt.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Elise: No one has figured it out? And even if it looks like they do, they do not have it figured out. They are staying up at night worrying just as much as you are.

Analiza: And where can we find you like LinkedIn or anywhere else like that?

Elise: Oh, yeah. So on LinkedIn, I have a profile. And then Ensemble Learning is the nonprofit I run focused on multilingual learners.

Analiza: Great. And then last question, Elise, do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts for the audience?

Elise: I just think everyone's trying to figure out their way in this world. And you have to give yourself that grace to figure out and those around you.

Analiza: With that. Elise, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing your journey. And also, with your work across so many schools, how we can help make it work for both moms, teachers, educators, and also kids.

Elise: Thanks so much. And thanks for even starting the podcast. It's so needed and so great. Really appreciate it.

Analiza: Thank you. Thank you so much for carving out time today to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, please share with someone else you can share the link and posts on Facebook and say check it out. Lastly, I want to thank you for being a listener and you can go to get a free self care bonus called juice your joy at Analizawolf.com/freebonus. Thank you so much.