Analiza: Hi, I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Asian-American, mama of two kiddos. I went from being a burned out mama to being a Boss Mama, being a boss at work home, and play. I'm on a mission to help more women be Boss Mamas. If you want to thrive at work without sacrificing family or self care, you are in the right place. For detailed show notes, go to analizawolf.com/podcast and be sure to subscribe because I send out the best secrets I learn from my guests to my email subscribers. Now let's get into today's show.

Analiza talks with Thaly Germain, CEO and Founder of Onward, a social justice organization. Thaly identifies as Black and non-binary. Thaly shares her journey learning independence at a young age and being raised by her neighbor. With degrees from Bryn Mawr, Fordham University, and Trinity University, Thaly was the Executive Director of the Lynch Leadership Academy and the Executive Director of Aligned Staff at New Leaders, a national leadership development organization.

In Boss Mamas, we talk about knowing yourself and being true to yourself. Thaly is a great example of this. Thaly shares how her values of freedom and liberation motivated her to start Onward. Thaly also shares their desire for their child to be free and the specific steps they take. One of the most important of these steps is that you need to model for your child who you aspire for them to be.

Let's start with an introduction. Tell us about you.

Thaly: I was born in Haiti, which really has had a big impact on who I am, my identity, and how I see the world in a country that's struggled through so many things. And I very much have been a part of that. And so that's a big part of my identity and who I am. I grew up in Brooklyn, when I moved from Haiti, I moved to Brooklyn, I grew up in a really poor part of Brooklyn, right, we didn't have a lot. I remember boiling hot water to take a bath, right? Like not having heat, we're launching a clothing line as part of Onward for next spring. And I was telling someone growing up, we didn't have a lot of money. We never had like what kids thought were cool things you know, like cool shoes and cool clothes. And so for me, I learned to be creative with not a lot my entire life. When I went to college, it was the first time I realized how much I didn't have. Because I had a lot of love in my life. My sister and I are super close. I did not live with either one of my parents. And my mom and I have never had this conversation. But we will soon. But she and my dad had a very turbulent relationship, which caused her to leave Haiti and leave us behind. My dad was struggling with his own issues. And so we lived with a neighbor. And so that created for me this like, immediate independence, meaning like I had to understand how to navigate the world, how to be super savvy at like four years old. So yeah, I would identify as non-binary, which is an important part of who I am. You know, I think it makes me have empathy in a lot of ways, but also like, it forces me to confront on a daily basis, people's perceptions of identity, it forces me to confront and to be like myself, like, I don't have a choice, in a lot of ways like I can't hide, right. And I like that, personally, because it makes me true to who I am. Actually, the last thing I'll say is there's a piece that I just watched and read, and it goes a little something like this, I insist upon my right to be multiple, even so I insist upon the recognition of my multiplicity, it's a Moses Sumney piece. And I love that I love this idea that we are many things and we insist on others, viewing us as all the things we are.

Analiza: Thanks Thaly, there's so much there. One thing that's coming up from me from that quote is just how that's not how society sets us up. There is a standard that we should subscribe to. And yet, we are so many more things, and we're beyond what we see. And there's no black and white, but there's just so much gray in like a beautiful spectrum of experience. So I really appreciate that. Because even the question of like, how do you identify? It's like, gosh, there's so much, how do I tell you all the things? So thanks for that. I want to bring in this idea of your work, because it's very inspiring. And if you were to sum up for us, what's it all for?

Thaly: Going back to that quote, my work is about the multiplicity of like, who I am and who we are. But I think the first thing I think about as it relates to my work is freedom and liberation, first for myself. And so when I launched this company, I wanted it to be different, and I wanted to experience that liberation and freedom. And so our work focuses on you know, we have two parts. There's the part that does systems building change management work, all for organizations who seek to become equitable, anti resist, etc, right? They want to change. And they're looking for a partner who will be immersed with them in that change management process. There's that part of the work. And so that's the consultancy. On the other side, we have an R&D shop. And that R&D shop is where we design innovations that we believe will have an impact on the world and on society. And we want to be responsive to real things. So for example, for the past few years, we've been in a pandemic. And we knew that kids, especially younger kids, right, whose parents did not have a lot of resources, meaning like, I don't have a nanny, I can't hire a tutor, I don't have all the things, we wanted those kids to have an amazing experience in learning. So as part of that R&D shop, we designed something called Liberated Homeschooling for Justice, where we essentially created a curriculum product. And for every family who participated, we would send them a kit for every module. And that kit included materials, resources, books, or either BIPOC written or with BIPOC protagonists, because we wanted those kids to see themselves in real ways. And we wanted to create an opportunity for them to expand where learning could be, and for families to have real connections with their kids, because we knew their home with them anyway, right. And we didn't want kids to be stuck on a screen necessarily. We wanted them to live. And we wanted them to understand what was happening in the world with the protests, George’s murder, we didn't want to shy away. And the students or participants in the program ranged between ages one and six. Right, so we had a wide range, and the rigor was super high. So like for us, we're responding to a real need. And we wanted to do something meaningful. As part of the R&D shop, we have a film, a documentary that's been at a lot of festivals, we're working on another one working on an apparel line, all in the spirit of telling stories about justice, about equity about real people, in as many ways as possible, right, insisting on our right, to be multiple. And also the last thing I'd say is, I want to create a better situation for my kid, for everybody else's kids. And so whatever small part I can play in that, like, that's what Onward is, at least for me.

Analiza: I appreciate that, especially when you brought in that there are so many ways to impact freedom and liberation for all, including our children and other people's children. So one thing that we didn't talk about Thaly is this idea of ourselves, the work that we're going through ourselves, and you started there, actually, you said, this is for myself, and for others. And I find that sometimes in our work, we never talk about ourselves. It's like the bad thing. Like you're being selfish to think about yourself, but yet you started there, found that really powerful. So I'd love for you to share for yourself, particularly healing because life when you were both young, like it wasn't necessarily the easiest. And yet, there's work we need to do to take care of ourselves, he'll experience liberation. So could you talk more about that?

Thaly: I've worked in lots of different spaces. And I remember having in all those places, moments where I sort of like the company first and whatever was happening for me was almost secondary. And that implications for the way I was with my family. And I want to tell you a short story about how that had a profound impact. So my dad and I, we had a tumultuous relationship, but we made amends. And my brother called to say, Hey, Dad had a stroke. Just want you to know, he's doing fine. He's home. I was like, Oh, my goodness, that is terrible. My dad was living in Haiti, and I was living in Boston at the time. So I say to myself, like, you know what, I'll call him tomorrow. I have all this work to do. So I'm on email, like actually remember, like, in my mind is this visual representation of what my email looks like? Like I'm emailing. And then within a day, I get a call that my dad died, never talked to him, never said goodbye. And that moment was significant for me in that like, even though we've made amends in a lot of ways. There were still things we could have talked about that we never got to and I didn't get to check in to say like, how are you? The self work includes a lot of things. The first one is like prioritizing myself, right and being in touch with who I am. If I am feeling stressed out on our team now, like we have really open conversations and we say the thing, there's not this fake structure where, for example, we don't do evaluations. We don't cap people's vacation days. We don't cap their sick days. We don't expect them to request sick leave or vacation, leave people just are responsible for their work. There's no hierarchy. I'm the founder of the org. But if you were in a meeting, you'd probably see that everybody's leading their work. And that's how it goes. And for some people, that's extremely uncomfortable. But one of the ways I take care of myself is creating lanes and spaces where we can all be who we are. Part of that healing work for me is to prioritize myself in a lot of ways. I left that organization because I was like, something, they forced me to prioritize emails over my dad who just had a stroke. So I needed to move away. I think the other ways we think about that, and I think about that, even in my work is having this R&D shop is one way for me to have a different way to access my brain, and to be creative, and to be thoughtful, and to take pauses from the consultancy, which is a very different way of working like recognizing that I am many things that I have some creativity that I can think about the world in different ways that I can design a curriculum that I can help produce a film, right, like, all those things are possible. I want to tap into those things as well. I think the other things that we try to do and that I've tried to do is take real, intentional pause. So we're working with our team on a year long sabbatical. We're calling it a creative sabbatical where we get to be creative and thoughtful. And part of that is focused, we're working with a partner on this, who happens to call it embodied restoration and embodied rest, where we're going to spend time resting in a meaningful way. Because the work is hard, the work is traumatic, the work has an impact. And you need those moments for yourself as a team. In every team meeting, we have pauses where we do, let's say chair yoga, or a quick workout or we tell jokes, make puns, right, like things that just allow you to be a human being. For me, it's about being true to myself and showing up as myself. And then taking intentional moments to do the things that I need to do to show up as far as I can for my people.

Analiza: That's powerful Thaly! All of it from your dad, to how you are breaking the cycle yourself. And it takes courage to say things like, I'm going to take care of myself, but my cup so I can pour into others. And also to talk about creativity, because frankly, I love how you structured it, you have a let's get the work done, change management, operational procedures. And then you also have an arm of be creative to also do the work. But in ways that tap a different part of our brain. And I don't know of creativity even is a thing, right a value somewhere we want, like employees to focus because it's too fun, right? It's not like directional. So I think that's amazing. I'm just reflecting for myself just taking time and trying to be creative. This is this podcast, right? Like it's about the work, which is about how to change systems and be about multiple identities and have that be embraced for ourselves and for our kids. But also it's about having fun, like connecting in different ways. So I want to go off this idea of you being a parent, and how that is shaping your view on raising her?

Thaly: She's so awesome. All kids are awesome. And I get to be with this little awesome human tie tie is like even when the day she was born, I had to tell the story. She was due to be born on January 5, 2018. And I had this feeling I was like oh we live in New York City or hospitals you'd have to get through like the ball drop situation to get to our hospital. So on January 30 We decided we would stay blocked from the city at this like super cute hotel that used to be a school super awesome packed our stuff but we were like this will be a mini vacation for us because clearly she's not going to be born on December 31 or January 1. That night was super cold. It was a supermoon and we parked our car and if you know anything about New York City, there's no street parking but it was December 31 So there happened to be like a spot, a free spot in front of the hotel. Which is crazy right like that never happens at about midnight. We're like doing our midnight celebration like here etc. Tom I had her first contraction but we didn't know at the time. It just felt like one of those pre contraction situations. And literally at 4, her water breaks. We're about to have a January 1 baby. This is happening. We get to the car. We drive three blocks because we are driving from Brooklyn thinking like we're not having this baby, we get to the hospital, we're supposed to have her at this birthing center, the delivery of the birthing center, there weren't enough doctors or nurses or people, so they shipped us to the hospital. So our whole situation changed. But I tell that story because Tai Tai always makes our lives easier. She could have waited, I mean, and I don't know how these things actually work in the universe. She made it easy for us. And I remember thinking, this kid is so so special already. For me, the thing about being a parent is being true to yourself, you have to live into the thing, the aspirations you have for your child. It's funny the day before she was born December 31, we had this idea of writing her letters. In my letter it was about the only thing I want for her is to be free. I don't need her to be in this career, or to accomplish a million things. I want her to feel extreme freedom and to lean into who she is. For me, what that means is I have to be free, I have to do the things that allow her to be free, such as I have to change my mindset about what it means to be a parent, my experience growing up was extremely challenging. And my mom and I are still working through those challenges. As a family. My mom was extremely rigid and strict. My mom was like old school, you misbehave, you will be beaten, it was extremely fear based for me, I wanted to move away from that. And I don't really have models. So I have to lean into myself intuiting and listening. I've learned a lot there about what it means to be true to yourself, and to be free in order to create freedom for others. Tai Tai is super cool. She's just like an amazing kid, like all kids. So recently, she told us she wants to learn how to skateboard. And we're like, really neither one of us skateboards we're like, oh, we don't know how to do this. So maybe we can find a place. So I say to her, if you're really serious about skateboarding, you have to research it. You have to do some chores to earn the resources it would take to purchase a skateboard and the helmet. And you have to show that you actually really want this because we were learning about financial literacy. That was like literally the only reason as part of the liberated curriculum. So she's like, cool. So she made a goal, and we made a chart. And every day she would do every chore. We didn't have to remind her. And then she started going around the neighborhood asking people they had jobs for her. And we're like, no, no, you don't have to do that. And then my sister calls, she's like, tactile just FaceTime me. Can I just give her the money? Like, I don't want her working? And I'm like, no, no, this is good, because she's learned about saving and what it means and doing research, etc. So she did it, earn her skateboard, did all the chores, and then went to the lesson. She got to the lesson. And I was afraid, right? I was like, Oh, this is gonna be tough. She was the youngest kid bear. She just turned three. And she was excellent. Because she wanted to do this, I'm gonna try it. I'm not going to be afraid. And then she was coaching the older kids, don't worry. It's super easy. He's gonna help you do this. And you're gonna do that. And so I think what I love about her is her freedom, her identity, she leans into who she is, she's brave. She's empathetic. This morning. I was getting her ready for school. And she wanted to wear my Mabrey shirt to school. And I was like, really? So we were learning about giving and care and the health system and how it's not equitable and fair. And she'd done some research about cancer because her other parents armoire was diagnosed with skin cancer at one point, and then my uncle had leukemia, her favorite Uncle, she calls them her main squeeze and he had leukemia. And so she wanted to learn about cancer. And so she learned about St. Jude's and and one of the cases was about a little girl named Mabrey. And she was like, I want to do a fundraiser for Mabrey. And I was like, okay, so we did a fundraiser for Mabrey, raised $500, I think. And she created this shirt as part of her pitch for getting people to donate. And so she was asking about that. She cares about the world. She understands complicated things. Obviously, I can talk about her forever. But I think there are three things that are really important for us, leaning into your truth. And we try to like just tell her the truth about everything. Whether it's something hard happening in the world, George Floyd's murder, whether it's the kids don't all have things volunteering, we did this thing where we have her call, we wanted to give back. And so there's a place where you can give donated goods to kids her age, and so she called and she made an appointment with me to go donate for kids who don't have clothes and things like that. So we try to be truthful. The other value I would say that's really important for our family is real freedom. So we're learning about gentle parenting and getting feedback the other day she sets a timer. You have to learn to be a better parent. You're in my mind like you were yelling, Now she apologizes like I'm sorry. I was frustrated about this. And then I think the third value for us too is we want to be joyful and have fun. So when we drive to school, we dance, we sing, we dance outside, we don't care. We're like just enjoying ourselves being together, we try to create that freedom. When I pick her up from school, the parent that jumping up and down like creating energy, I literally I can talk about her forever. She's my workout buddy, she does powerlifting with me, she has her little way she does wall sets with me ball slams, she wrote, we go jogging together, when a mod, Aubrey was murdered, you know, they're doing a run. We did it together. And we talked a lot, Aubrey and what it meant in the world, because we also want to prepare her to understand we can overcome things, things are going to be hard. We don't want her to be bombarded with hard things. And she doesn't know how to navigate them. I set out to stop three times ago, but like I keep thinking about other things. But those are the three things that have changed for me as a parent, like learning those three values. And living into them is a real difficulty when you haven't had to, it just makes me better.

Analiza: I love that. Love, love, love it. And there's a few things I wanted to just go deeper into because I love to just hear how you do it. Because, frankly, I don't know a lot of people who raise children like you do. And there's a lot I'm learning personally. So can you talk about how you talk about the hard things? I mean, she's three, just so I say that?

Thaly: We try to be super intentional about using a lot of books to talk about hard things. So we talked about Malala, for example. And we talked about it like we have actually three Malala books, one that we bought into that other people gave us. We try to break things down. And we try to answer her questions. So the way she learned about the fact that everybody doesn't have access to food, let's say we were driving one day, in Bushwick. And folks were in line waiting for groceries and food. And she was like, What is this line? And I could have easily said something else. It is a line for people who want to go to a party, it is the line for people who are going to park and I said, Well, everybody doesn't have food at home. And so all these people are waiting to be given food because they can't afford to buy food at the grocery store. And she was like, why can't they afford to buy food at the grocery store, she asked a lot of questions. And we try to be direct and just go to it. And I was like, Well, unfortunately, everybody doesn't have access to work and money and resources and you need money to be able to buy things to eat. And some people don't have that. She was like even kids, I was like even kids. And then I say to her something to the effect of when we get home, we can do some research. And we looked at No Kid Hungry, they have resources for kids, we try to be intentional about curating resources wherever we can. There's this thing that we use to talk about complex problems or issues and just things in general, like today, she was learning about the molecules that make up water. And it's called BrainPOP. And there's a BrainPOP Jr, with a little girl in a robot. And they talk about complicated things. And so we also use that to build our own language, and as sort of an additional thing. So we do that. And then we talk to her about our work. So Tom is a human rights lawyer, and she works on organizing pirates, Paris Climate Agreement stuff, tobacco, and so like. We really try to talk to her about our work as for activists is one of the first books she read. So we try to have a lot of things around. I'm looking around well, babies up there Anti Racist Babies here as well. I mean, we have so many books, who in our house like it's insane, go to the library a lot. One time, I was on a call with Mike Africa, Jr. and I don't know if you're familiar with his life, but his parents were essentially in jail as part of a movement in Philadelphia. And she was around and I said, Come listen to this. And we were listening to him talk about the fact that both of his parents were incarcerated and the reason for that. And then as we were listening, she would ask questions like, What is jail? And so I would explain it to her. And she was like, oh, like, that sounds like not a good thing. And then I talked to her about the system of mass incarceration and just breaking it down. And then like, the other thing she does when hard things are happening is she wants to play them out. And so we take the time to do that. So for example, when she had a seizure as a two year old, we were like, so scared. And after that we had to do these extensive brain scans. So we have to be at the hospital for Three days, I believe, where they would attach these wires to her head into a machine. And so what we did there is we bought a model of the brain. And then we created one. So she learned about the different parts of the brain like, here's your brain, here's what we think is happening. We don't know we have to go find out. And then we said, Okay, now this is what's going to happen. We're going to do the same thing to your stuffy, you're going to be the doctor, and you're going to attach the wire so we can check that stuff. We can check his brain, she was like, Cool. So when she got to the hospital, she was telling the doctors about the cerebrum and cerebellum and the brainstem and what they do, and they were like, Whoa, what our perspective is, we're gonna break it down, we're gonna practice we're gonna play the thing that feels hard for you, because we want you to process it. So I think the way we do it is like, we read about it, we do research together, we learn to empathize, right? Like with people, and then we play, we enact the thing, right? Might be through puppet shows might be through like, using your imagination might be like, sometimes she likes to draw things, you might draw it out. So it makes like, she's an easy kid because of those things. Because she is constantly asking, you're learning and doing.

Analiza: I love it. And I'm actually reflecting on how when we think about freedom and liberation, it's the ability to think it's the ability to ask questions, and it's the conviction that you deserve answers.

Thaly: Yeah. In real answers,

Analiza: Real answers and to go after them. You don't just hand it over in this like, cleaned up version, we go together, and it's okay. Beautiful. I could talk for you to you for hours, but this is so amazing. Thaly, I want to go to our lightning round questions, because that's some of your favorite things. Okay. Okay, here we go. Chocolate or vanilla?

Thaly: Chocolate.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Thaly: Ooh. Ah, it's hard. Cooking.

Analiza: Would you climb a mountain or a jump from a plane?

Thaly: Climb a mountain.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Thaly: Yes.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of 1 to 10 and 10 being Mariah Carey?

Thaly: Okay, this one requires a little bit of explanation. So I would say I'm a one at singing skill. At passion I'm definitely attend. And I know all the words every song ever, like from Opera to Afro beats to kids songs. I know everything.

Analiza: What's a recent book you've read?

Thaly: Men Explain Things To Me.

Analiza: What is your favorite way to practice self care?

Thaly: Working out and watching The Office.

Analiza: What's a good professional development that you've done?

Thaly: I've been a part of the Interaction Institute for Social Change has some really good stuff. And so I would say anything I've done with them, whether it's facilitated leadership, or the one they have on racial equity, really powerful stuff.

Analiza: What's your definition of a Boss, Mama?

Thaly: I would say someone who is willing to learn is constantly trying to figure it out, like literally no answer. There's no like, this is the path for everyone. And so you just have to be willing to be flexible or to keep learning.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Thaly: Be an entrepreneur, don't go to college, Well, maybe go to college after we start that first.

Analiza: Where can we find you?

Thaly: I have a unique name. So all of my accounts, Twitter, Instagram, they're all Thaly Germain, just my name. And then we also have this as Onward, also the same, they're all the same. But I don't post much only about Tai Tai.

Analiza: Do you have a final ask recommendations or any parting thoughts to share with the audience?

Thaly: It's easy to talk about all the things that we do well, in a situation like this, right? I didn't talk about the struggles of having hard conversations, like Tom and I literally have sat down. And can we talk to you to this? Right? Like, it's not easy. It's not like, we're going to talk about all the hard stuff you learn as you go. And so parenting is really hard. And like, we make tons of mistakes all the time, as parents, we literally constantly trying to get better. And so I think, even for the people who seem to have it, right, that would include me. And so we're all just doing it to the best of our ability. And the most important thing for me is just to have that love there, and to show it in the way that makes sense to you. But knowing that we're all learning, our kids will have hard moments too. And I actually don't know if what we're doing is the right thing. It feels right for our family and buy the right thing meaning like, we'll see right how things turn out like this is a marathon and so lots of mistakes every day that we make.

Analiza: Thaly, thank you so much for this conversation. I really appreciate you.

Thaly: Thank you. I appreciate you too. And I hope we get to see each other really soon.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time today to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, please share with someone else you can share the link and posts on Facebook and say check it out. Lastly, I want to thank you for being a listener and you can go to get a free self care bonus called juice your joy at Analiza wolf.com/freebonus. Thank you so much.