Analiza: Hi, I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Asian-American, mama of two kiddos. I went from being a burned out mama to being a Boss Mama, being a boss at work home, and play. I'm on a mission to help more women be Boss Mamas. If you want to thrive at work without sacrificing family or self care, you are in the right place. For detailed show notes, go to analizawolf.com/podcast and be sure to subscribe because I send out the best secrets I learn from my guests to my email subscribers. Now let's get into today's show.

Are you in a relationship that doesn’t quite feel right? Do you have a hunch that they might not be the right person, but you feel pressure from your family and community to stay together?

In this episode, Analiza talks with Korean American Sue Jean Hong. Growing up, Sue Jean’s family moved to different cities, so Sue Jean went to seven schools before graduating from high school, including eight years in Korea. Sue Jean went to the University of California Irvine for her BA and Masters and then University of Southern California for her EdD. Sue Jean was inspired by her teachers and became a teacher herself and then a principal. Sue Jean married but after two years had an inkling that her partner was not right for her. They struggled with getting pregnant, but it wasn’t until a fateful Christmas evening that she realized that enough was enough. Sue Jean decided that she was getting a divorce. In Boss Mamas, we talk about the strategy of breakdowns to breakthroughs. Sue Jean shares facing pressures as a leader and as a daughter of parents with strong Korean values. She also shares how divorce was a gift and what this opened up for her in her life. I'm excited for you to meet this Boss Mama.

Sue Jean, you and I have something in common that most people don't. And that we went to a lot of schools growing up even before college, I went to eight schools because I moved around so much as a military kid. How many schools did you go to?

Sue Jean: I think that I went to about seven schools while growing up. And I think being a military kid would make the most sense. But I would generally tell people that like my parents just really liked to pack in and pack which is not necessarily true. But some aspect of it had to be right. So my parents moved around a lot when my brother and I were younger because they were helping with family businesses as well as they wanted my brother and I to be educated in the Korean system so that we can communicate with my grandparents and my aunts and uncles. So we actually moved from when I was eight to 16 to Korea, which I think ticked up the number of schools that we ended up going to. So yeah, long answer for very short. I think it's seven schools.

Analiza: So I'm picturing you going to these different schools. And sometimes I imagine myself and you. We were dropped in the middle of a school year, you're this new kid, and you are in a new school. Tell us about a time when you are in a new school,

Sue Jean: When we actually moved to Korea, and we ended up going to a Korean school. My Korean was not very good. And naturally, the only thing that we have is our body language. And I could tell I was a little bit bigger and more awkward than the kids. So I think I quickly learned the value of comedic performance. That definitely worked. And as an eight year old kid, I figure that out, right? I think I will try to make as many friends as possible through comedy.

Analiza: I'm picturing you at eight. And I, too, am working on my own language skills Tagalog and you're working on Korean, and here you are, and you're doing a comedic performance. And what did that look like? Especially since you couldn't speak in Korean?

Sue Jean: I embodied the Three Stooges, you know, like awkwardly tripping and part of it might have just been my awkwardness that I made funny. When I was like Tada, like me, I just filled everything that was on your desk accidentally while I was looking for my chair. So I think it was kind of like that because language really didn't work.

Analiza: It's so rare, frankly. So it's a good idea to have a funny Asian woman because usually as an Asian woman, they have ideas that we are good at math when we play piano in the Filipino world and will be a nurse and have you break out into a joke. I was so wowed because I don't meet many Asian women who are hilarious and love that about you. I'm picturing though, being in Korea, and you're at the hardcore Korean schools. I did some research being in schools, both of us in education, Korean schools are hard core. So what was it like for you to be at these schools without having the language and you're surrounded by a whole community who are really into school.

Sue Jean: Failure comes to mind, I feel like I tried really, really hard, like, trying hard to fit in. Once I went to Korea, I wasn't Korean enough. That was a ding on me. I definitely did not know how to read or write. So there was a lot of catching up. But then I think once I did grasp the reading and writing, I didn't really understand what I was doing. And like that definitely showed and like all of the exams that we took, and I was really fortunate that my mom was trying to keep up with the Korean Jones's sort of, I guess, the Kim's right, and like sending me to like all the after school things, and then at the same time, like hating herself a little bit for doing that, because she wanted me to be a kid. And then realizing I had nobody to play with because everybody was doing the after school stuff. I think it was like a mixture of things that I recognize now. But like, as a child, as a student, I definitely felt like, maybe I'm just not smart. Like, I thought I got it. And then I would take the test. And I would bring home Fs pretty consistently and didn't attribute to that to like, Oh, it's a language barrier. I just, I definitely think I like to internalize a little bit of that. And I was like, okay, so I guess, doctor, and lawyer, and that sort of those jobs are not for me. And I think that's the narrative that I started putting in my head.

Analiza: It's ironic because you go on to have a themed career in education, leaving schools, which I love. But let's remind for so your mom wants you to play, you're doing all this hardcore school, you're coming home with Fs is not looking great. You transfer to an international school, and then you eventually come back stateside before college. What was it like when you came back stateside, and you're now in the regular school.

Sue Jean: School can not be this easy. You cannot just go to school from eight to 306 and be done. Right? It was like one of those things where I really questioned what my academic experience has been and why I felt like such a failure. It was like during the last two years of school in high school where I was like, Oh, I knew that college was like, it wasn't an option. It was the thing that you were going to do, right. But I had some reservations about it. And then like being in school with my peers in the US made me go, Okay, I definitely belong in a college, you know, maybe it's not going to be Harvard, the schools that my mom likes to like, enunciate. But I belong in a university setting. And I actually want to become a teacher.

Analiza: Sue Jean, when you were now in America, did you have your sights set on being a teacher? And that was set as a kid? Or was that something that came about when you were in American schools?

Sue Jean: We always talked about how representation matters. And I was like, Yeah, sure. And then the more I thought about it, I realized how much it did. So I had two phenomenal history teachers. One, her name was Jenny Khan. And she was my US History teacher at Seoul foreign high school in Korea. She was a graduate of that school, went to Harvard, came back to teach and I fell in love with US history because of her. And then the second one was actually when I came to the US because of the classes that I took at the school in Korea. That was it, man. So I was taking classes with all these seniors and I got to take econ, my junior year, and there was a teacher who was my econ teacher who just made me fall in love with economics. I knew I wanted to become a social studies teacher. Fast forward, like, I guess 10 years or so I actually got to work with her.

Analiza: I love stories like that, where we look back at the teachers who inspired us because they're so darn good at teaching that we would love that content. I always thought, Well, maybe if I love biology, I should be a doctor. Maybe because I love history I should be a history teacher, when it was the teacher themselves being so passionate and wanting to have other kids learn why they loved the material so much. So what a gift and to have these people actually represent your culture and being Asian, so rare and awesome.

Sue Jean: So rare, and so cool, especially at the secondary level. We don't really see a lot of Asian American women like teaching at that level at the high school level. And so I feel incredibly lucky to have crossed paths with like two phenomenal educators.

Analiza: So I'm going to fast forward then and we're going to talk from work and careers school to love life. So when did you meet the person you would eventually marry? When did that happen?

Sue Jean: Well, I'm just going to spoiler alert my ex husband in college. It was my senior year of college when I met my ex husband and what you do to him in particular, it was the fact that he was interested in me. I'm always a sucker for that. He was very different from a small town, which I found out eventually as I got to know him, and he was, I guess, like the epitome of a small town white boy. And then I developed this theory like dating white men, infiltrating friends and taking over the world. That was my goal.

Analiza: I got to go into this man tribute versus three step process to take over the world. Where did you get that? What is that about?

Sue Jean: I think part of it was stolen from Pinky in the Brain. And I didn't know it was like one of those things were like I said it like as a joke to my friends and then especially to his friends as well, right? Like, as I'm making friends with them. I was like, you know that my plan is to date white men, infiltrate friends, take over the world. And I kind of wonder now, how much of my own implicit biases were actually like being stated through that? Why does it require dating a white man in order for me to take over the world? Oh, no, but honestly started off as a joke. And now in this moment, like today, I recognize that maybe that was like my actual implicit biases, like spoken out loud.

Analiza: Sue Jean, I mean, I married a white dude, too. So there's tons of implicit bias, or maybe not so implicit, since both my brother and I married white people. And it's a ton of stuff, what's called stuff that parents society says about colorism and racism that help us as we get lighter, to be closer to the white norm that was more powerful. So it's interesting to look at those who have made decisions. I have children now with this man, and I wouldn't take it back because I have made my bed. But it's interesting to be more knowledgeable now.

Sue Jean: Korean culture is such that you marry within the culture, like anything other than Korean culture, it's definitely like It's an uphill battle.

Analiza: So how did you convince your parents to let you marry this white guy?

Sue Jean: You know, what it actually took was actually my grandmother, my dad's mother, she is my grandparents. On my dad's side, they did something that's like, unheard of for their generation. Like she ran away from home at 14 because she was in love with my grandpa. She was a rebel. And I met Matt my senior year. And we had already said, okay, but once I graduate, we're done. Right? We're breaking up. So graduation came and it was done. He went back home after living in the dorms, he went back home, and I was home, my grandparents, my grandma was here for my graduation. And I got really sick. I was actually like, oh my gosh, I actually kind of like, really love this guy. And I don't know, you know, if I can live without him, like, there were all these, like dramatic feelings that were happening. And yet we were broken up. And it drove me to like, become really sick. And my grandma was just kind of like she was there. She was doing her touristy things. And then one day, she asked me for coffee, and she asked me if I had a boyfriend. And I told her, I don't at the moment. And she's like, but you seem really sad. So what's happening? So I told her what had been happening. And she said, I didn't. I know that you don't choose who you fall in love with. And it's okay that you didn't choose who you fall in love with. Like, sometimes it just happens that if you need me to talk to your parents about this person not being Korean, I know you're not doing it on purpose. And so she ended up having a conversation with my parents that gave my mom I think permission to be like, Okay, let me see this guy for something other than his whiteness. And she had said, Because I arranged a, you know, secret meeting between my mom and him at the most awkward lunch you can ever imagine. And she was like, you know, I've always acknowledged that he's a nice person. I just couldn't get over the fact that he was white. And I think that conversation between my grandma and my parents, like allowed him to get a chance as a human being. And so that's how that relationship started.

Analiza: That was a grandma coming in,14 years old, and running away.

Sue Jean: I don't know. But like, we have choice words for kids who are 14. Running away in the name of love. Like there's interventions that happen and nobody and nothing could stop this lady from my crown pub. Go, grandma.

Analiza: Okay, so let's fast forward and you have already given us that spoiler alert. So let's go there. What happened? You didn't follow Love. Your grandma gave you the props and helped open doors to make that happen. And yet, he was not the one.

Sue Jean: Yeah, he wasn't the one. I think for me, I'm not 100% sure where these things came from, but I have rules that were set in my head. It may be from my Catholic beliefs, and maybe from like, the things that I've learned around Korean society and like, what you actually like, uphold, I don't know where it all came from. But like, I have beliefs around like, you marry somebody, and you stick with it, even if it's hard, you go to college, if you know, have your Mrs by the end of it awesome. And then you're supposed to like becoming a mom, and then you're supposed to just stick it through. And it just happens easily, right? This is like your 2020s ideals. And so with Pim, you just make it work. And I think for us, what had happened was, we were both growing, but not necessarily together. I think I definitely ended up choosing him because he's comfortable in the sense that he doesn't require that much emotional, you know, output. Like, I think I told you earlier that I'm really good at making friends and building that fast relationship. But sustaining relationships is a hard thing that I'm still learning how to do. And so we obviously got to that point, and I was just like, well, you're comfortable, you're not going to say anything, neither am I want to watch TV. And he was perfectly happy with that. And we decided that it was time for us to try having kids. And after trying for a couple years, we realized maybe we should seek fertility treatment. And so we started down that path, which obviously has like a lot of things that come up around your womanhood around your body and whether or not you were meant to become the mom that you always thought you wanted to be. And there was no emotional connection between this person and I throughout that entire process. And I'm hating myself. And I'm so ashamed of myself for having to have gone through this and like the one person who could maybe have been like a person who's like bouncing ideas off of and saying, Actually, no, let's think about it a different way just wasn't there altogether. And for me, I think that it was like a buildup of things. Not one big thing happened, where I was like, this relationship is done. And I can honestly say I think even the IVF part of it, it wasn't like I really want to have kids with you. It was more of a, we should have kids because that's the next thing to do. Right? Like we dated, we got engaged, we got married. We have kids, we have dogs. And so like I was basically going through this entire process with somebody who is like my roommate. And I think before we started doing the shots, like a couple days before, we had actually talked about things like, Is this really the right thing for us to do. But we have already invested all this time. So we should, which is not a great way to approach a really important decision I realized.

Analiza: It's interesting how in hindsight, we see hmm, I think maybe the universe was helping me to get to a point. So you could have thought you could have had the baby. And it could have been successful in so many ways that would have been like a star, all your hard work. Now you've got the baby. But yet that didn't happen. So what was the point that really caused you to say, I'm done?

Sue Jean: I think like after it didn't work, after our cycle did not work. And there was an incredible amount of loneliness there. I had already been thinking about, like, if I am unable to have kids, this is a person who's supposed to love me the most in my life. And is this enough? I had already been questioning that I think I recognized by that point, wow, this person just really does not have emotions. What is that emotional intelligence? And that was starting to kind of make me wonder whether or not this was the right partnership for me to be in. It was the Christmas of that year, that cycle. Everything happened in June, July. It was like this is really weird. And he wasn't going to therapy or anything about it, just trying to deal with it by watching TV. And we see Christmas cards on there from family, friends and whatnot. And they're like, oh, yeah, go through and read through. And I'm reading and like seeing pictures, and it's so great. And then all of a sudden I see like, oh, you know, I'm sorry, it didn't work out for Sue Jean. And that's weird. And I keep reading. And then I see that there was something very specific about it, like, I'm sorry that I'm sorry that the IVF didn't work. Hopefully next year will be their year. And I was like Excuse me, where is this coming from? Why aren't they talking about our cycle in their Christmas letter? And my ex mother in law tells me oh, well we put it in the Christmas letter that went out was like cool. So every single family member, every business partner, every friend, their parents they all know that we went through IVF and that it didn't work. And I came undone in that moment. And it was Christmas Eve, and I was like, I don't want to be here, we got to go. And at that point, his mom was like pulling, right? Like, do you think I did anything wrong? I think that is fair news to share. Matt didn't really defend me. And I was just done. I was like, I can't be like an emotionally unintelligent human being. And I saw where that's coming from, like, it is a nature part. And I just didn't want to be a part of that anymore. Like, I didn't want to be with the roommate anymore. I didn't want to be a part of an emotionally just completely depleted family.

Analiza: It's interesting how today as you walk through the years of trying to have a baby IVF. And then this capstone moment, that was incredibly painful, to not have your partner, at the hardest moments, support you, and give you a hug and all of the things that were hard, and yet that was the moment that you decided, I know that what was also hard about it was you're at this time now a principal does that right? How did you navigate that? And even thinking about your parents? Or were you thinking about that?

Sue Jean: If I were to be 100%, honest, I knew that our marriage was over probably two or three years into it. We were married for seven years, around three years into it, I was like, this is weird. Oh, it's time to try making babies. All right, I can work on that project as like, suppress the feelings for the next chapter. And after IVF didn't work. And during that, like five to six month period, as I was mulling this over in my head, and very much by myself, I was thinking about it from my parents perspective, I was like, I can't let them down. I can't have a conversation about that. I know that my parents are not a perfect marriage, but they're making it work. And so are all my aunts and uncles where they're not, whether they're actually happy or not, that's the model that I should be working towards. I have that film going on in my head. And then like, on the other side with my school, I could not face the thought of being called the divorced principal. And I made this such a big thing in my head, oh my god, the kids know me here as Miss Folks. And then they're going to have to call me Miss Hong. And then the parents are going to wonder why. And then they're going to know and they're all Catholic, and then they're going to judge me and then they're going to judge me whether or not I can actually be a fit person to like to go to school. And so I had all this pressure for why I just needed to make it work. And I can honestly say getting divorce was the best gift. It's the best thing that I've ever done for myself, because being on the other side of the divorce has taught me like all those pressures, all the rules, all the playbooks that I had in my head about how life needed to go like number one came crashing down. And I realized that that's actually not what people hold. As the most important thing. What do they hold as the most important thing, so gene, for me to be happy for other people to be happy? And it's so weird, and how if my friend or if my brother, if my mom, if anybody that I loved was going through anything I would never say but it's a rule. You should stay in a marriage, you know how to make it work. Like who says that to anybody, but like to myself, like there was no other script. And that's what I found out. People just want other people to be happy, and that they'll support you blind.

Analiza: It's interesting, with all the worry that at the end of the day, they wanted you to be happy, and making this huge decision opened up a ton of happiness for you. So tell us about that. Because I know that it took time, but how was that transition? And then what did you open up?

Sue Jean: I think this gift of divorce for me has opened up a lot of different doors like it given me the opportunity to like really work on myself, I've always wanted Well, I can't say always but since high school and since deciding that I education is actually a thing for me, I got to go back to school, I finished my doctorate, I started working on physical abilities that I never thought that I ever would have missed in middle school in high school. When they say run a mile I was like, I'll walk until you call time like that was me. I've ran three marathons, I've done a half Ironman, and I've learned my body is actually capable of so much more than I ever thought it would be. My relationship with my parents has become a lot more honest. They were really upset that I informed them of my divorce instead of consulting them about my relationship. In that sense. Things have gotten better. Of course with my brother, my relationship with Billy is good. And it opened me to understand what I seek in a relationship and that was really eye opening, right like somebody who's just emotionally available is like comfortable for me. But I think what I was really seeking was somebody who's warm, who is emotionally capable of having conversations sometimes and who can push me to have the conversations when I don't want to, which opened me to a possibility of love with my current partner, he's just a phenomenal human being. I think it's difficult because he pushes me to be okay with discomfort around talking about emotional stuff. He's just really good about that. And I think our partnership and our relationship also gave way to the greatest gift for both of us, which is to have become parents to an adorable, half Filipino half Korean kid who just does amazing things and humbles us every day. So those are all the possibilities that opened up because of it.

Analiza: I think it's interesting that the struggle to get pregnant with your first husband didn't happen. The second time around the universe just said, Yes. And now you're ready.

Sue Jean: Yeah, we were actually literally in the process of about to start IUI to try and get pregnant when it came back positive. I was like, There's no way I think I peed on like, 20 sticks that day, I was pretty sure that something was wrong. Yeah, but you're right. I think there is something beautiful when things are meant to be. It's gonna work out and you don't have to, flail and make it happen. It just will.

Analiza: What would you say Sue Jean to someone listening to you, and wondering about their own partnership or marriage. And there's all this societal pressure about what a successful leader mom does, which is keep it together?

Sue Jean: Truly make the decision about whether to stay or to leave based on what you need, and everything else will fall into place. And that's such a radically difficult thing to do, I think for women, because we are just naturally we worry about everybody else, and how they're going to be in the fallout from that, like I can tell you like from the divorce, like the first thing that came to my mind was like my niece and nephew. How are they going to be? You know, I'm going to be there one day and not, but they're fine. I'm sure they're thriving. But in that moment, I think we tend to muddy our own needs with everybody else's potential judgment. And I could tell you being on this other side, like that judgment isn't there. And I think if I had chosen to stay, that judgment still would not be there. I think people would naturally believe that I'm staying because I want to be happy. And now that I've left I can also tell you people still want you to be happy.

Analiza: People want to see you happy. We're all on the same page. All right, with that Sue Jean, let's do our lightning round questions. Chocolate or vanilla?

Sue Jean: Vanilla.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Sue Jean: Oh, I think I'm gonna say takeout. But if it was baking or cooking, I would say baking.

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Sue Jean: Climb a mountain.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Sue Jean: I am really, really ashamed to say this. Yes, but only because my school in Korea was very east coast influenced. And so unfortunately, I did wear socks with Burks while I was in school there. I regret it till this day.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of 1 to 10 and 10 being Mariah Carey?

Sue Jean: I'm going to rate myself a 7.

Analiza: What's a recent book you read?

Sue Jean: I'm reading three books at the same time. Like that's how I roll so yeah, I can't do one book at a time.

Analiza: What's one of them?

Sue Jean: I'm doing Four Hundred Souls right now by Ibram Kendi and Keisha Blaine. So that's one of the books.

Analiza: What's your favorite way to practice self care?

Sue Jean: I am right now all about the peloton. I would say like club bangers ride with Alex Tusan on a peloton that's self care right now.

Analiza: What's your definition of a Boss Mama?

Sue Jean: Somebody who is authentically themselves at work as well as at home and is very honest about being okay with their not being true? Like I don't know like we have like the, This is my professional life versus my personal life. I think I've realized there's no such thing. I need to take my whole self everywhere.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Sue Jean: Oh, Sue Jean. Would I tell her to maybe pursue that comedy career? Hmm, maybe that would have been just don't be afraid of whatever people say just do it.

Analiza: It's not too late.

Sue Jean: Yeah, your mom will be okay with it.

Analiza: Where can we find you like LinkedIn or anywhere else?

Sue Jean: You can find me on LinkedIn at Sue Jean Hong and Instagram @ladysuejean98. And I'm pretty active on social media. And I'm trying not to be one of those moms with just you know Asher stuff, but it is just Asher stuff for right now.

Analiza: Last question, do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts to share with the audience?

Sue Jean: Get a meaningful life as being even keeled and not being extremely happy and not being extremely sad. And if you feel both, that's okay too, right. So just try and live together.

Analiza: Thank you so much to Jean, I really appreciate our conversation.

Sue Jean: Thank you Analiza, thank you for this opportunity to reflect on my life and share the little that I've learned.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time today to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, please share it with someone else. You can share the link and post on Facebook and say check it out. Lastly, I want to thank you for being a listener and you can go to get a free self care bonus called juice your joy at Analizawolf.com/freebonus. Thank you so much.