Analiza: Hi, I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Asian American mama of two kiddos. I went from being a burned out mama to being a Boss Mama, being a boss at work, home, and play. I'm on a mission to help more women be Boss Mamas. If you want to thrive at work without sacrificing family or self care, you're in the right place. I'm launching my next cohort of women leaders starting in April. The online course is eight weeks and has helped achieving women get the balance, joy and fulfillment they deserve. Go to analizawolf.com/bossmamas to learn more. Now, let's get into today's show.

Chinese-American Jeanie Tung shares with Analiza her Boss Mama story about being a rebel. Jeanie had rebel parents who married even when their parents forbid them to. Jeanie was born in Taiwan and moved to the U.S. when she was two. When she was four, a teacher told Jeanie’s mom that Jeanie was a piano prodigy. Jeanie worked hard and got a seat at Julliard. There, Jeanie realized that her heart was not into piano.

She changed careers and went to law school, graduating from the University of Wisconsin. Jeanie practiced law for a few years but again, her heart was not into being an attorney. She leaned into her passion for advocating for Asian American rights and became a leader at different advocacy organizations. Jeanie is currently at the Henry Street Settlement helping marginalized New Yorkers find jobs. Jeanie shares her journey time and time again of facing pressure from her family and society to follow the typical route to success.

In Boss Mamas, we talk about the importance of trusting yourself and your authenticity and listening to your heart. Jeanie is a great example of this. Jeanie also shares her journey to realizing she is polyamorous and how she parents her daughter through her daughter’s own choices.

So Jeanie, as an Asian American, I have to start here, this idea of being a rebel, it often doesn't come up with people who look like us. So talk to me about these rebel roots. Where do you think this came from?

Jeanie: I have to talk about my parents because they were rebels. They fell in love and got married, conceived me out of wedlock, and followed their dreams. They are also codependent though I remember this story, my dad told us that he had to sell his blood in order to have money to buy a wedding ring for my mom. And definitely they went against their parents, they eloped never had a wedding. We have one wedding photo that they took, purchased, of course, and I am born of those kind of renegade parents. One of the reasons their parents are against the marriage is because my father was all set to go to America to get a graduate degree in agricultural economics at Tuskegee, and my mom hadn't even finished high school. So they were like, she is not a good match for you. You know, they wanted him to find someone college educated.

Analiza: Yeah, that pressure is real Jeanie and pressure of, you want to meet your match. You want to make sure you're trading up that you reflect well on the family, your dad then moved to get the degree to the US, how did that work with you?

Jeanie: So my dad left for school, knowing that my mom was pregnant, and just trusted that things would work out and my mom had me. So when I was born, I did not meet my dad. I didn't meet him till I was two years old when we moved to New York.

Analiza: So you're two years old now. And you haven't met your dad, and you meet your dad. And I got to ask you. So you’re two years old Jeanie, moving from Taiwan to the US.

Jeanie: There's a photo of me as a baby on the piano. And somehow I got this idea that I really wanted to learn how to play. And my mom again, you know, she is so passionate about following her dreams, she borrowed money from a friend to get me a piano and get me lessons. And so I'm so grateful for all that support. And then I started kind of late, seven or eight years old, but I was deemed a prodigy after just a year of lessons. And it was a thrilling ride. But it didn't last.

Analiza: Well, let's just be clear Jeanie. You also have a teacher that says you're a prodigy, which doesn't really happen to most of us, me. For example, I played piano because I was mediocre and you get an opportunity at Juilliard, which is one of the top schools in the world. So super humbled Jeanie.

Jeanie: It was really humbling to see all these other really talented individuals, talented musicians, definitely. It does take me back to first grade when I went to the bathroom one evening after school, and looked at myself in the mirror and really realized that, you know, I'm not white. And that's not a great position to be in. Because it seems like there's so much emphasis and advantage and privilege to being white. But I'm not white.

Analiza: Wow. I mean, first grade, that's six years old. So did you go to a school of Asian Americans?

Jeanie: I was the only Asian person in my grade. And it was otherwise predominantly African American. And, you know, also white, when you could see that there was more privilege among the white children than the black children.

Analiza: You already saw that when you're six. And do you remember, an example of what that privilege looks like for kids?

Jeanie: It was just this subtle confidence, and maybe also from the parents of the kids. And there wasn't always conflict, which seemed to be true of the black kids.

Analiza: I remember when I had that moment, Jeanie, when I realized that I wasn't white. And actually I wanted to be white, so that I could look like the kids in my books, the Sweet Valley twins books, and blond and blue eyed so I can very much resonate with that. So I'm going to fast forward back to Juilliard. And you remember this moment when you're in first grade? And so what did that mean then? For you as a pianist? You still had these dreams. I mean, couldn't you thrive as an Asian American piano player?

Jeanie: My mom rather told me that she knew I was gonna be born. She had this dream that she was sleeping in a temple. They heard my dad and her run away from their family. And then all of a sudden, she heard millions of tiny little voices. And it was a race of all these babies rushing to them, and I won and got their first and to be born into their family. And it really set me up, I feel like I could have a magical life. And then the fact that my parents were Renegade and the fact that they she really thought that if I went down the path of playing the piano and had so much talent, that I could become a concert pianist and give concerts all around the world, and, you know, make money and donate that money to good causes, you know, that was really magical. And it gave me so much self confidence. But it also gave me so much love for my family and for the world, that to be put in a conservatory and to practice alone, or to, you know, be boxed in this very rigid path didn't feel right to me. So that's why I chose a liberal arts education.

Analiza: So your mom has these deep beliefs in you, and also has a belief that you would use the money to help other people, which ends up helping to pave your path post Jeanie, and at the same time, you're going to tell mom, especially mom, that you're not going to follow that dream. What was that like?

Jeanie: So my father passed away right after I graduated college. And that was really difficult, because the expectation was that I was going to stay at home and help out my family. And I felt really burdened by that. I mean I love my family and wanted to help my mom. But I didn't feel that that was the right path for me. And I've always been told that I'm the selfish one. But I feel like in the end, that being selfish and following your true path, in the long run is beneficial to everybody. And so I did pursue law school in Madison, Wisconsin, that means I, you know, had to be away from New York, where my family? And yes, we struggled. I mean, luckily, we were not struggling too much financially, but definitely emotionally. I had to have that break from my mom. And I think she was very sad and upset over it. But now in the long run, you know, we have a good relationship, and she really understands what I've become.

Analiza: Yeah, I mean, I'm just trying to imagine you talking with your mom, and sorry about the death of your dad, during that time, you still remembering what matters to you, and following your heart and knowing that it will work out in the long run for everyone, and staying true to that to yourself. And that's a lot of just self worth, like belief in you. So just hats off, because I could use more of that in my life. So Jeannie, so you're in law school, and you graduate. And so what next? Did you follow the path, try to make your parents proud or your mom proud? What happened?

Jeanie: Yeah, so I took some jobs that were not for profit. And that's always been where my heart is, right? Because I didn't go to law school to be a corporate attorney, I went to law school for social justice, I went to law school to make the world a better place. I went to law school to fight for those who didn't have a voice. And I started working for legal aid to get experience in litigation, and also to serve those who needed it the most. And what I found was that, even though I wanted to help and advocate for people that I couldn't give up my own self care, you know, there had to be work life balance. And when I went to Legal Aid and realize that the culture there prevented me from like taking the vacation that I had earned, and that it was like shunned upon to not work long hours, or you know, to overextend yourself, I decided that this was really not the right path for me. And also in the courtroom, there's so much anger. And that was not going to be healthy for me in the long run. And that's also why I left being an attorney.

Analiza: I mean, Jeanie, as someone who's been in the nonprofit world, serving with Mission aligned people, I can really resonate with that. We're all working hard for service. And yet, when we try to take care of ourselves that is looked down upon, we don't really talk about it, but like the shame that we have, Gosh, darn you try to take a vacation or leave at five to try to go to yoga. That's really poopoo on you. So again, like I just want to say there's a pattern of society, your parents, your mom, especially your organization saying, here's the way that you should be And yet, you're like, No, I know it's true for me, I'm gonna choose what's in my heart, even though it's hard and have my own path. So what happens then?

Jeanie: Yeah, so I think that's when I started getting the biological urge to be a parent, I started seeing families around me and feeling like, oh, you know, I feel so unfulfilled because I don't have that. But at the same time, I knew that I wasn't ready to get married, I was ready to be a mom. But I was not ready to be someone's wife. And I think that started when I was in college for the first time dating and exploring relationships, and realizing that monogamy wasn't always going to be the right fit for me, because I understood that you could love multiple people, multiple genders. And the model of that binary couple unit didn't feel right to me. So luckily, I did find someone who you know, was willing to have a child, even though he did become really uncomfortable when I actually got pregnant. But in the end, he stayed in my daughter's life. And we're not a couple, but he is my daughter's father. And we are on very good terms.

Analiza: So Jeanie, you shared a ton there, and I want to spend a little bit more. So you're in college. And you know, back when we were in college, I didn't know about polyamory, or multiple partners. And so how did you navigate that? How did you know what possibilities were even possible? what did that look like for you trying to figure out who you were?

Jeanie: Yeah, and definitely in college, I think it was things like having a boyfriend, but still being able to hold hands with other people that I really liked and enjoyed. And then of course, you know, there were like lots of breakups and getting back together. And you know, that phase of where we're really trying to figure out how to be in a relationship and grow that way. And it wasn't until after I had my child that I started understanding that there was terminology and I could articulate what polyamory even meant for me. So that's definitely more recent in my life to be able to speak to that.

Analiza: So actually, now that you mentioned definitions, because they're now helpful definitions, and there's different words that you can use to help define. So how would you define polyamory?

Jeanie: So it's very personal. But for me, it's realizing that I can have multiple loving relationships. And because I am a sensual and sexual person to have multiple sexual partners, and there are couples that are asexual and they you know, that might not be in the equation. But for me, it's loving multiple people. And there can be different kinds of relationships, right where it's loving, but maybe there isn't that central part of it, or intimate part of it. But there's a lot of emotional intimacy. And so it can look so many different ways, depending on the people involved. And I really believe that is so important, because I mean, I'm a relationship nerd. To be honest, I mean, my work involves building relationships. I really value all of the friendships and relationships I have, each of them is so unique to me. And to be able to design your own relationship and have that clear communication is what makes life meaningful.

Analiza: I love that you're a relationship nerd, because it does extend and we're gonna talk about your current role soon. But I want to delve into being a mom and also living this life because there's so much pressure about what a quote unquote good mom is, and what the family unit looks like. So can you share more? You have your daughter, the partner who is with you, but then you know, you end up your friends, but you're not together. So what does that look like raising your daughter and staying true to yourself in terms of sexuality?

Jeanie: Yes, I would say I devoted those first 10 years of her life to her and she's the love of my life. She really is the love of my life. And I wish I had another child, but I'm very happy. I mean, and she's amazing. So, definitely, I mean, I had this lofty idea that having a child would be one of my contributions to the world because I wanted to be very deliberate about it, very intentional about how I raised her and making sure that she would have a positive influence in the world someday. And I think so far so good. She's a sophomore in college, and she's beginning to realize that she's also, you know, different In some ways, but it's allowed that she can be different. And she doesn't need to feel too bad about it. And she's, you know, figuring that out on her own. But I think she's grateful that she has me to support her in her journey.

Analiza: So that's wonderful. I love how much you adore your daughter, when she was growing up. How did you do? Or did you need to explain that? How you had your family unit is different, like what kind of conversations did you have? Do you remember a time when you had a moment with her so that you could feel safe? Like or maybe she was having trouble understanding? Could you share a little bit about that?

Jeanie: Yeah, definitely. It was challenging. I mean, it first of all, felt pretty guilty that I couldn't give her siblings and also that her father and I didn't live together. And I think she was angry at me for a while when her dad and I didn't stay together. And I remember when she was much younger, she threatened that she would, you know, chop off my limbs if I left my dad. So she felt that strongly about it. And I think yeah, I'm sure part of her is still working through that anger that she didn't have a traditional family unit. But I think she really appreciates more that like, I've talked to her about sex and sexuality, and we make it playful. So she tells me that I'm sort of like her psychiatrist, you know, she can tell me anything, she can vent at me. And she's not afraid to share things with me. So I appreciate that. I'm so grateful that I have that bond with her.

Analiza: When she asked you, as a child, or a young teen about that lifestyle that you have, like, what did it look like? Do you have different people who live with you? Or was it always outside? Or did you integrate the people in your love life with her? If you could share a little bit more about what that looked like growing up for her?

Jeanie: Yeah, so she was a teenager when I was dating more people. And mostly I didn't share a lot with her unless the partners were a little more emotionally invested and a stronger friendship was there, then she would be introduced to them as my friends. And I didn't really tell her or share very much with her, I might do a little bit more now. And I do have a committed partner relationship, even though we're not monogamous. And she takes what she wants and leaves the rest alone. And that's great, because you know, she's young and prioritizes her own life, and she doesn't ask me too many questions.

Analiza: And with your daughter, Have you shared with her as my friend? Do you share the details of you know, we're together, but also I see other people that she knows that kind of detail?

Jeanie: So for example, she met one of my girlfriends, and she knows we're close. But again, she also knows that I have this partner. And you know, I have other very close relationships, and she has accepted it.

Analiza: I love it. I love how there's a, I'm going to live my life. I'm going to introduce my daughter, as the relationship progresses. And we're going to work through whatever surfaces together, that I'm not going to hide this life, because that's true to you. So I can see how that has brought you together and to feel really close. And she's working through her own stuff as young adults do. I love it. So now I'm going to kind of bring the two together, the law school, trying Legal Aid, seeing that that's not quite a fit, at the same time having a baby and living and expressing your sexuality. So what does it look like now? Do you feel like you have the trifecta of mommyhood, work hood and your personal life? What does it look like for you?

Jeanie: Yes, I'm so lucky. I mean, Henry Street settlement where I've been for the last 18 years has been such a great place for me to grow and to thrive. The vision of the CEO is something that I believe in, and we have an active board. And there's just belief in the whole person and the whole community. I mean that that is the settlement house model and you know, something on the walls of our executive offices reads, you know, each of us is whole and worthy. There is power and bridging differences, neighbors matter and in times of need act, you know, I share those values, and I'm just really grateful that I've been able to integrate so much of my professional life, personal life, spiritual life, all that together and I'm able to continue to be my authentic self every day.

Analiza: I mean, it's so rare, Jeanie, to have that authenticity, and to really be valued, aligned in a real way with leadership, because often it is a quote on the wall and not actually practice. And I imagine then that self care is not something to be shunned. What does that look like at the organization?

Jeanie: Yeah, so especially in the pandemic, there were so many policies set up to help people take care of themselves, you know, extending the carryover of vacation or making more use of vacation and having more sick days, there has been a racial equity day, just lots of very important structural supports there. So it's not just one off but it's, you know, institutionalized in our HR policies. So that's been super helpful. And just the culture of the organization. We do try to find work-life balance. We are professional, but also like a family at work, where we support each other and help each other out when there's a need. It doesn't mean that we're not busy. And we do a lot with the little you know how it is with the not for profit world. We're very resourceful.

Analiza: I mean, you've been there for 18 years, Jeanie, incredibly rare. So, bring us now back to a universe, bring us back to your rebel mom. How does that look now that now that she has you and her together had the full spectrum of life? What is that relationship like?

Jeanie: Even though there has been unhealthy behavior between myself and my mother, she's actually an inspiration. I mean, she's so supportive in a very real way. And she also has done so much work on herself. So you know, she had me when she was 21 years old. I mean, she was barely an adult herself. And so she's grown so much we talk every day. My daughter during her first year of college, because of the pandemic, lived with her actually, during her first year of college before moving to college campus this year for her second year. And so we're all very close. And I really value the relationship I have with my mother, she deals with some health issues, she lives by herself, but she really appreciates all her children now, if not more than before.

Analiza: Beautiful. So Jeanie, I'm going to just try to map out a bit about the consistent themes you've had in your life and your work and personal life, being true to you, knowing what matters, and living that life, in your choice of organization, choice of role, and also sexuality, that you have never really conform to what people's expectations of you have been. There's a solid sense of self that's unique. And you have transferred that over to your daughter, which is really beautiful. So is there anything else you would say about how you've been able to live this life that you could share with the audience?

Jeanie: Yeah, I was just reflecting yesterday, on my work day, that so much of my time is spent on battling negativity, but it's so necessary, you know, just reflecting on what other people say, and asking them to take a different perspective, I think is is challenging that but also creates curiosity and a dialogue for further conversation. And I think that's what it's all about, right? I talked about building relationships. It's what I do at my job every day. And building relationships is about honest communication, and dialoguing across differences. So that is my practice. And I don't really see another way.

Analiza: Love it. Valuing differences, taking on different perspectives, being able to have empathy, and bridging with curiosity versus righteousness. So that's sweet. All right. With that, let us go do our lightning round questions. Ready?

Jeanie: Okay.

Analiza: Chocolate or vanilla?

Jeanie: Chocolate.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Jeanie: Cooking.

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Jeanie: Climb a mountain.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Jeanie: I have.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of 1 to 10 and 10 being Mariah Carey?

Jeanie: Maybe 7.

Analiza: Recent book you read?

Jeanie: Oh, that's a tough one, because I'm sort of in the middle of a bunch. Yeah, I'll pass.

Analiza: What's a good professional development you've been to?

Jeanie: The Coro of leadership training.

Analiza: What's your definition of a boss mama?

Jeanie: Yeah, someone who's comfortable in their own skin and isn't afraid to make difficult decisions.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Jeanie: To savor every moment.

Analiza: And then where can we find you like LinkedIn or anywhere else like that?

Jeanie: Yes. I think LinkedIn is probably the best way to find me. Jeanie Tung.

Analiza: And do you have a file ask or recommendation or any parting thoughts with audience?

Jeanie: Yeah, please connect with me. I'm always happy to share best practices or build partnerships, figure out ways we can work together. I'm very open to that.

Analiza: That's fabulous. Thank you so much, Jeanie, for sharing your story.

Jeanie: Thank you, Analiza, you're the best. This has been a great and fun experience. Thank you so much for everything you do.