Analiza: Hi, I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Asian American mama of two kiddos. I went from being a burned out mama to being a Boss Mama, being a boss at work, home, and play. I'm on a mission to help more women be Boss Mamas. If you want to thrive at work without sacrificing family or self care, you're in the right place. Now, let's get into today's show.

I am so excited to be with Caroline Ceniza-Levine. She's a fellow Filipina American, and the founder of the dream career club. She's a career coach, a writer and a media personality on job market issues. And she helps lots of leaders, experienced professionals in technology, media, financial services, and other industries make a great living, doing work they love. So I'm so excited, Caroline, to have you with us today. I have so many questions for you. Can you give us an overview of your upbringing, education, and just how it led to this professional career?

Caroline: Yeah, you know, look, I would say that my career is in two halves. So the first half is the pretty traditional part. So I've been working for almost 30 years. So the first 15 years was a traditional corporate career in an office environment. I actually trained as a classical piano. So as a music major in college, I did college and conservatory. And I also was an economics major. So I had two majors, and I loved business. And so I've always had this Arts and Business thing going, I worked in investment banking, management consulting, I worked in retained executive search. So that was my pivot into HR. And then I worked in corporate recruiting for a global media company. So that is the kind of traditional half and background. And then in 2008, I started my own company, which focuses on HR consulting, predominantly executive coaching, but also some recruiting. And so, you know, I guess the arc of the career is really a career change. I mean, I've been in the Arts and Business back again, back and forth, and doing all those things. I've been an employee, I've been an entrepreneur, I've been in different industries and in different roles. So the only constant is the change part.

Analiza: So we're going to talk about these different pivots. So it's really fun, because you not just have Caroline, this professional side, but you've also got the art side, and you actually made that into part of your life instead of these separate silos. But before we go there, tell me Caroline, as a fellow Filipina, How has being Filipina or even just your identity, your ethnicity, gender, your culture, how has it influenced your life and your professional career?

Caroline: I would also say that study hard, get good grades, get a good job, he said, and young be a business person or a lawyer or a doctor, you know, that there were certain careers or you know, there are certain expectations from a professional standpoint, I think, again, not only a Filipina thing, but definitely I mean, that was part of the upbringing as well.

Analiza: I love that as a Filipino. I feel like being a doctor, it was the standard thing, play piano, be a doctor. My mom was a nurse. It's like super standard. And both of us did not take the medical path, which is really funny. But let's turn to your career. Because there are certain challenges that we face as people of color as women trying to make it in these different industries and you've had so many pivots in your career. I'd love to learn about a pivotal moment when you learn what it would really take as a woman of color to make it to the top.

Caroline: I don't have rose colored glasses where I say, oh, you know, racial discrimination doesn't happen or age discrimination or gender discrimination. But I will tell you what has served me really well. And what I tell all of my clients is that I actually don't think about those things. And I tell people that, you know, do the best you can. And then when you get to the top help other people, when I'm in a negotiation, I don't think, oh, you know, I'm a woman in negotiation, I think, Okay, what do I need to do? What is the other person? What are they giving off? What are they saying? How can I work off of that, I don't assume that I'm in a tougher position, because I'm a woman or because of the stage, I'm older, or because I was younger at the time, or because I'm Filipina, or whatever it is. And that has served me really well. I've always gone into situations thinking, why not me, just assume that it will be okay. And again, that isn't to diminish things like the double bind, which is to say that, you know, if a man negotiates hard, or asks for what he wants, he's being assertive, and that's, that's a good quality to have a woman does it, she's being bossy, if a person of color does it, they have to be careful not to come across as as angry or asking too much. But again, you know, I think that at the end of the day, people hire people, people promote people, it is about relationships that you and I develop, and we have to do the best that we can do there.

Analiza: Yeah, let's talk about that. Because Caroline you name that you don't think about it. Which actually if you think about racism, sexism, all those isms discrimination, when you do think about it actually can be stereotype threat, right? You can actually perpetuate, okay, this feeling of maybe inferiority that maybe I'm not supposed to be here you have impostor syndrome. So the idea of let's focus on the job, why not me, I am as qualified, it can be me. In fact, they would be lucky to have me. That's the mastering the mindset. And so what are those things, Caroline, that you would say that most people don't know, that when they're trying to go to bat for themselves are really trying to make it to the top, especially as women, people of color, what would you say, say three things like, Okay, make sure you do these three things.

Caroline: I would say that if you can think of negotiation as not a one time event, but actually a process, then you will be ahead of the game. And but what I mean by that is that most people, when they hear the word negotiation, they think of sitting at a table across from the other person talking about the job offer, or the raise, or whatever it is that they're negotiating about, when in reality negotiation is a process that starts well, before you get to the table, it starts in your preparation, it starts with the other person's preparation, and then thinking about what they want. And then sitting down at the table is just one part of that. And then there's after you're at the table, and you're following up with that person, and you're continuing the conversation. So it's a lot of little conversations, it's a lot of action in between. It's a lot of things that you do on your own well before you talk to anybody. And so if you can just think of it as a longer game than what's right now at the moment. It certainly can take some of the anxiety off of it. And also, it will help you realize that there are many levers that you can pull here, there are many factors that you can influence, you don't have one chance and that's it. So thinking of it as a process for sure is going to help. Secondly, remembering that the most important part of this process is actually the preparation. I'll be coaching people on their negotiation, and they're not even 100% clear on what they want. You know, though, they'll say, Well, I'll know when I see it. Whoa, well, what is that supposed to mean? Or, you know, that a job offer is just one thing, a job offer is dozens of things. I mean, just compensation is a lot of things, it’s salary, it’s growth, it’s bonus sign on, it’s upside, it’s profit, it’s equity, its title, it's, I can go on and on and on. And that's just, you know, the compensation piece of it. And that's not even your work environment, and your resources and your relationships with other people. And so there are so many things to negotiate, you have to be really, really clear, that's all part of the preparation. I take people through a seven step process, because yeah, like, there's a lot that can be done in there. And then I would say, the final thing is that the reason why you're negotiating is because you want to work together, you really do want to make a deal. And they're there for that reason, too. So you start from a place of agreement. I think people hear the word negotiation, and they think hostile, and they think conflict. And that's actually not true. Because if you really didn't want to work together, you would just not negotiate, it's because you got that offer, because they're invested in you. And because they, they want you or you there that company already and they want to keep you and so really, you know, if you can just hold on to that. And think back to the fact that you know what, I do want to work with these people. And I want to have a long term, genuine relationship with folks. And so I'm not trying to squeeze every last concession out of them. And they're also not going to do that to me.

Analiza: I love that mindset of Caroline. Because for me, when I think about negotiation, it's like a pit in your stomach one time, let's get the cops ready, let's try to do battle. Instead of realizing, wow, we really are both of us, both sides really have an opportunity to have great partnerships. So how can we make this partnership really be something considerably long term. So that's a great mindset. And so I got to see some of these clips, because you've been on NBC, CBS, CNN, Fox, and so many, and you're writer for Forbes, so tons of media presence, and it for me as a woman of color to see you, Caroline, on screen or even in your picture in a magazine. So I'm curious, when you think about that move to becoming part of a media presence, you've also written a book. So could you talk about that?

Caroline: I had gone after the media in general, to establish credibility. And I encourage all leaders and aspiring leaders to do the same, that you do have to establish your thought leadership and your expertise in a way that people will believe and will find memorable. I just put myself out there. I started with my community newspaper guest blogging, I started with journalists that I happen to know who are also, you know, regional reporters, or just, you know, on a regional channel, something like that. And I was just trying to be as helpful as I could, to as many people as possible. And I've been writing for 11 years now, for Forbes, and they actually reached out to me, so you can't apply. There's no, there's no way you can apply to be a contributor. And at the time, I was actually one of the first contributors because they actually had a reunion of us. And when we had to say how long we've been with, with the publication, I was there for actually a long time. And I remember asking the editor, and this is a good question for any entrepreneur to ask, how did you hear about me? And she said, everywhere. So I knew at that point that okay, I was starting to get some traction, and that, that it works to just try to be in all these different places, so that people will see you and then will recognize your work. So you know, so that's the media part of it. And then the book, you know, my book projects actually came about through a similar vein. So it was through relationships that I was actually part of my very first book project, which was an anthology of essays about fear. And I wrote about fear and career change, because I wanted to own that kind of career chain space. And the editor of that book, she happened to have worked at a company I had worked out of, we didn't know each other at the company. I played on that affinity. I said, Hey, we both were here. And now we're both here. And it would be great to work together again. So even though we hadn't technically worked together, I established, you know, that affinity. The second book project came when the publishers reached out to me. They had seen my work in a lot of different places in the career space, they were looking for someone to write a textbook that they were going to market out to universities about job search. And so I worked on that project. And then finally, the third book, which is jumped shipped and steps, just starting a new career was through Forbes. So Forbes, and Amazon had a partnership to release a number of How To books on Kindle. And they asked me to write a career book. So a software change book, so I specifically wrote for them, like how to on the career change piece.

Analiza: You said earlier that you wanted to own the sort of job switch career navigation space. How did you assess because you have had these different types of job pivots, that that would be the space you would own?

Caroline: Well, I just believed so much in it for myself, because I had done it for myself. And I had, and that was really the way that I found happiness. Like, I don't think that I can be doing one thing and only one thing that I thrive on doing different things. And I know a lot of people who are like that. And I see, even generally speaking, even now that more of the traditional media or the traditional advice is around focus, you know, focus on one thing and really become an expert in this one specific thing. And I just felt like there was room where we lived for a long time now. And we can be working for 40, 50, 60, 70 years. And I just think that it's so unrealistic to tell someone that they're going to be doing the same thing as 80 that they did when they were 20 or even at 50 and 20. And I knew from being a recruiter and seeing how hiring works, that there is room for people to change careers. It isn't like just looking for another job. It is a different animal. And so I felt like it was an interesting enough space. I felt like I benefited from it. I saw that there was a need out there and it's just a fun space to be in and let's face it, we're working for so long. Pick something that's fun if you're going to specialize.

Analiza: I mean speaking of finding Caroline there you have not just you know these books, media, and your own business You've also got this film company. I mean, when I discovered that about you, I watched some of the clips, and they're funky and you have a fun series, a kind of a scary horror series, and then a sort of cultural series. So how did this fit in with all of the different ventures that you're doing?

Caroline: Yeah, well, you know, I love movies, I love horror and sci fi in particular. And I have my so my film partner, Bruce Fock, is also a recruiter. So we actually met through recruiting. And then it turned out that he was a theater major, and went to conservatory and college. I was a music major went to conservatory and college. And so we have this in common. And so we just started talking about the arts and how we still love the arts and wanted to be involved. And then it turned out that we actually both loved zombie movies in particular. So we bonded over that. And then we said, well, maybe we could do something. And he is, you know, he's a black American. And so they chose people of color, you know, are they represented in the films that we watched? And so that was something that we talked about? And we said, well, if not like waiting, this is before you get out. And you know, really before kind of all the racial Reckoning and so we just started talking about maybe we can start creating some of these things. And so we did, I mean, it was just about following what our interests were, and figuring out how to make it work which of course, is the secret to career change. Start with your interest, and then figure out how to make that into a job.

Analiza: Did you have Caroline, like a documentary filmmaking skill set already? I mean, buying the equipment, like learning how to do all this, was that already in your arsenal? Or did you have to learn how to do that?

Caroline: No, I mean, but it was in Bruce's arsenal. So when we divvy up what we're doing, I very much say so I was already writing and he was already writing. So we write together and separately, but I do much more of the producing, and then hold you much more on the directing and the casting side, because that's his area of expertise. And my area of expertise is business and money and connections and, you know, trying to raise there. But yeah, I mean, there were absolutely things that I had to learn because I didn't know anything about the business of film, or how much things should cost or would cost and things like that. So they're always things you're going to learn. But that's true in every industry. I mean, I feel like when I pivoted, even when I'm recruiting, and I'm still recruiting, but I'm, you know, going from financial services to media or to biotech, there's a learning curve there. But I call that career change light, because you're at least keeping something stationary, which in this case, is the recruiting.

Analiza: I love the three threads throughout this conversation, which is that you have followed your interests and passions, and then it'll work out from there and to champion yourself, even if it's new content or new people to meet once you follow your heart. It all worked out. So beautiful, so beautiful. So we're gonna pivot now, Caroline, to you as mom. And one of the reasons why we wanted to have this conversation was that you are a proponent of the fire movement. And I'd heard of the fire movement before but when you talked about it, he said, you know, it is accessible even to mom leaders who were so so so busy. How can we even think about retiring early? So I'd love for you, Caroline, for those people who don't know what the fire movement is, maybe just get a quick background. What is it?

Caroline: Yeah, so fire stands for financial independence and retiring early. And the movement really stands for less to retire early in the sense of you're sitting on a beach with a cocktail and not working. But it's to make work optional. It's the notion that you have enough income. So that's the financial independence piece coming in from other sources, whether that's, you know, dividends and interest or rental real estate or products that you've sold, or royalties that you're collecting from a book that you've written as you can get it from a business as well. So it's this notion that you have these other things that are happening outside of your job. And it is really important, I think, for working moms in particular, because it's exhausting, frankly, to be raising a kid and to be, you know, managing and spearheading a career. And there are going to be times where you might want to take your foot off the gas in one place or another that you might want to, you know, dive deep into work and therefore get extra help at the home, you know, extra childcare, extra household care, whatever it is, there are going to be times where you want to work part time where you want to maybe take some risks in your career and whatever it is take a sabbatical and financial independence allows you to do that. So I do think that women have to pay attention. Women salaries also peak earlier than men on average, it's 40. Now don't just run around to that number and say, Oh, my gosh, I'm over 40 that it's done for me, because it's an average, folks. Okay, so but the point is, and for men, it's late 40s. But the point is, for women, you might be at the latter half of your money making ability. And so that's another thing to think about. And for everybody, there's AI, there's automation, there's outsourcing, there are all sorts of economic forces that are making the job market more volatile. Right now we are in a candidate's market. The great resignation has caused a lot of companies to feel very anxious and very nice about retaining their employees and oh, it seems like it's, it's going to be such a great time, you know, that the pendulum is going to shift again. And it's going to be an employer's market. And when there's a down market, it's nice to have financial independence, so that if you somehow have an extended employment gap, you can weather that you're not going to be sunk financially.

Analiza: I love this description, because the FIRE movement is not necessarily this kickback on the beach. But there are steps we can take now, and to someone who already has a full plate, and you're saying, Okay, well, let's do things that can help prepare to weather the storm, or just give flexibility in pursuing a sabbatical. What would you say? And I'd read all these great articles, and we'll include Caroline's links in the resource side. But what would you say Caroline are the first three things to consider in steps to take. I get you have a full plate, but here are the first three things to consider so we can move forward.

Caroline: Yeah, well, I would say the first thing is just being aware that FIRE exists, and that it's a possibility, which might not sound like a lot, we're going back to mindset again, you know, Analiza, and you, you say that that's a big part of how you coach as well, because it is it's such a game changer. I know for myself, I just assumed maybe this is part of the Philippine up or just bringing everything back full circle, but they get good grades, get a job, right? Like just just head down and just work really hard to retire when you're 65 or 70, or whatever it is. I just didn't question that, actually, till I got, you know, I was 40 years old, I was like running full cylinders with my business. And it was, by all accounts, a successful business at that point that was exhausted. And, you know, two kids are still at home, so my kids are in college and graduate school. So you know, now they're self-sufficient, but 10 years ago, not the case. So full plate. And I just couldn't see myself doing this at this pace for 2030 years. And when I started the FIRE movement, just this notion of like, other people have done it, why not me? So just that first step into the work career, we 've done it, so there must be some way of doing it. And I would find just stories, and this is why I use my interest as a compass. Because then you'll pay attention. You know, I found I just stumbled onto people who happen to do it by moving abroad. I did not do that by moving over here. But I just, I looked at that and I said, Oh, well, I've always wanted to travel. And so I'm going to read these travel stories and live vicariously but it really planted a seed saying, Oh, this is doable. Other people have done it. How can I do it? So just that would be absolutely positively the first step. And then the second step is to, you know, do like work with what you have. So the first that was when I really started looking at books, and you know, getting serious about getting published and developing courses because I thought to myself, yeah, if I ever had to stop working for whatever reason, what income would I have? That would go on? You know, my coaching wouldn't go on unless I recorded it or unless I wrote it down or you know, so I really just started to think about working with what I had. And you have to start where you are, you know so I took an inventory of the mutual funds that I own through my 401k. You know, a lot of people have a retirement account yet we all start with something people have savings. In the bank, that might be like a really small number, but it's just good to know like, oh, okay, so this is what I have to work with. But then the third thing is to not be afraid to think I hate saying outside the box, side of the box, because that's a consulting phrase. And I call myself a recovering management consultant. So I don't like to use that jargon. But in this particular case, it applies, meaning that I just said, pay attention to what you're interested in, pay attention to what you have to get started, and then be willing to throw it all out the window. So the reason why I say that is because I stepped into that loop where I was, like I said, flat out my business was successful. At that point, I felt like I had really grown it as much as I wanted to grow it. And I couldn't see myself doing more. And if I didn't look outside the business, I would have just stayed there and been like, I'm exhausted, I can't figure it out. But instead, I thought about real estate, I had always been interested in real estate, and in that spirit of, Hmm, why not me, that's actually another way of getting income coming in, well, I won't physically be doing that job. And I just started reading about it, there's no cost to reading about it. And I started reading about people just like you and me, who bought a house and then rented it out and bought another one and rented it. And I just thought, Okay, why not? Let me just try it. Let me just say it's about, you know, experimenting, and being willing to say, Oh, my first idea, like, didn't pan out. I mean, I thought it was going to be my coaching business, I was gonna productize everything, I was gonna scale it that way. And I do have coaching products, I do some of that. But that's actually not my favorite part of the business. I do prefer live interaction, I do prefer, you know, the hourly stuff, if you will. And so I had to honor that. But at the same time, still hold on to the fire thing and say, Okay, so I'm going to do it some other way else. So there's always another option. And I'll tell people to think about five if you think of one solution and force yourself to think of five solutions, because even if you don't go with the other four, just in that exercise, it will show you that you have options.

Analiza: Movement to FIRE, Caroline and taking baby steps first with mindset that it's possible, if not, you know, if others especially some of these amazing Boss Mamas, right, they've got degrees, they've got these big jobs, or mom, which is the largest job. And then to say, why not me? I think that's so huge. And then to take inspiration from others, including yourself, of how they've made it happen. So we'll include the links to your blog and the different specific steps to take one question I have for you, Caroline is about real estate, because you were in New York or a high cost city. And then you had to have your partner get on board with trading to a different city, because that I found really fascinating as a step toward this. Could you talk about that?

Caroline: Sure. And to be clear, we worked on FIRE while we were in New York. So we only moved out of New York City, once the youngest was already in college, which was always the plan that we were going to be in a warmer weather climate. I love New York. And if it were summer year round, I would stay year round, but I just am not a winter person. So I knew that we were going to leave for the winters. So this is part of that thinking outside of the box and just being more creative. I mean, we both knew eventually, we're going to live outside the city. So when we started thinking about rental real estate, and New York being so expensive, buying rentals in New York and buying enough of them that it was going to support a lifestyle was just not doable. I mean, it wasn't doable with the jobs we have. He was working with a nonprofit, I was working in HR, these are not investment banking, you know, bonus type jobs. Okay. So we had to work with what we had. And so we looked at real estate outside of New York. So again, it's like there's always a solution. That might not be any one particular person's solution. I'm not giving specific financial advice. I'm only saying what worked for me. But it was that willingness to just say, you know, for a long time, I was fixated and how are we ever going to afford an apartment in New York and New York real estate so expensive. So all I saw was New York real estate. And as soon as I just said, Wait a minute, New York is but one location. Let's look outside, it just opened up all sorts of possibilities. And so, again, it's like forcing yourself to think of more than one solution. And for us, it really became, gosh, when we looked at all the assets that we had, and I looked, and I said, Oh, you know, if we did move to a foreign country where the cost of living was a lot less, we never did that. But if we did do that we actually could reform and afford to retire right now. Like, we would not have to do anything else. And that gave my husband the courage to leave his traditional job and to go into consulting, because there was no way that he was going to do that. It was just that the numbers like our plan B would be to move to some exotic locale abroad. That's not a bad plan B. So he was like, oh, okay, that's fine. So there's always a way to do things.

Analiza: The Plan B been moving to Costa Rica, I know that you bought a place there are several places. Yeah, that's a pretty sweet deal. So did you ever consider moving fully to Costa Rica?

Caroline: Well, we still think about it. I mean, we, that was always in the cards as a, if we had to do it, that would be our really, really fun nuclear option, I call it. But I just, I mean, ideally, I'd like to have all of it, you know, we still have to get to a place in New York, we now have a place in Florida. So we have, the slower the leisure, the beach lifestyle of Florida, we have Costa Rica, when we need to do something more exotic. And we have New York when we need to do something that's faster and busier. And when I just miss Big City Life. So you know, you might find that you can do all of it. But when we started, we started one stage at a time. It was okay, we could do it in Costa Rica. That's our first stage of fire. And okay, we could move to a lower cost geography like Florida versus New York. And that's, that's a second, a second stage. And then, but ideally, we'd like to do all of it. So you can still dream big, as long as you are willing to bite that off and take small steps.

Analiza: Would you accumulate properties in those same cities? Or would you continue to spread out demographic with the geographics?

Caroline: Yeah, I mean, so everybody's gonna be different here. I mean, we own property in four different locations. We actually started in North Carolina, not Florida, but North Carolina, Florida, Costa Rica and New York. So you know, a part of that's our preference, just that we wanted to own where we're living. Part of it is where we had contacts where we had a team because we cannot manage our properties on the ground, certainly not in Costa Rica, we're not in North Carolina, and even our properties in Florida, we don't manage. So we have a property management team. And so part of their other geographies, and we'd be interested in but we don't know people there. It just didn't, you know, work out in terms of timing wise, we already had a setup here. So just why not? Again, I was an entrepreneur with two kids, you have to do what you can do. And that's why I keep telling people, there are many, many, many ways to proceed. You can buy real estate and a lot of geographies. You don't even have to buy real estate, you can do products, you can do books, you can do investing, I mean, there's just so many things. And so if you feel like you're hitting a brick wall, or this notion of being a landlord is really scary, then okay, then don't pick something else.

Analiza: So with that, Caroline, I'm gonna go to lightning round questions. Are you ready? Yes. Okay, chocolate or vanilla?

Caroline: Chocolate

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Caroline: Cooking.

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Caroline: Neither. Like seriously? Neither. Okay. Not even interested. No, this is what we can just like, I know, it's lightning rounds. But I just have to say, I did stand up in New York for nine years. And people are always like, Oh my God, that's so scary. This was scary. And yet they'll go bungee jumping or they could physically die. You know what I'm saying? Like, no, sorry. Neither. Never.

Analiza: Okay, Caroline.I would happily do either of those verses stand up. So come on. Yeah. Crazy. Sounds really crazy. Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Caroline: I probably have. I don't have an issue with it. But well, I'm in Florida. You don't need socks with anything here.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being Mariah Carey?

Caroline: Okay, so I am a music major. So yes, I can say and I will say that. It's certainly not 10. Mariah Carey. I mean, seriously, certainly not. But the thing that saves me with karaoke, I would say that I'm probably like a seven. And that's only because not because I'm a good singer. But because my song selection is really good. Like, I know what I can sing and what I can't, I'm not going to pick some song with a big range. I'm not going to pick for what I carry, for example, I stay in my lane. I know that I'm an alto and I'll pick you know, and marine or something with like a tiny range and very low. The Carpenter's low, low. Yeah.

Analiza: Like so you know where your lane is? Rock your lane rocker interests. Okay, what's a recent book you read?

Caroline: Wow, I have to say, and that's so funny because I always document the books that I read. And I have to say, I read over 30 books in 2021. None of them were all that memorable. I will say, I recently read this book called Limitless by Jim Kwik, who is a memory expert. And he had this brain injury when he was five years old, fascinating and had to learn how to learn. And so the book is, what is the optimal way to learn quickly so that you can memorize things and recall them and it's fascinating, like this notion of learning how to learn a course, that's a superpower.

Analiza: Sweet. What is your favorite way to practice self care?

Caroline: Oh, I have a bunch of things. So I'm a big green juice person because I don't eat enough vegetables, but I can drink them. I meditate because it's there's too many distractions. If I can just do it for 15 minutes. That's amazing. I love journaling. And I love warm drinks. So tea coffee, I just love that it's not even the taste of it as much as it is the heat of it as you're drinking.

Analiza: Nice. What's a good professional development you've done?

Caroline: Well, you know, it's funny. I'm in a program now which is about habit development. And as I said, I read that book on that list, which is about learning, so I'm constantly just exploring different things. I was on a language kick, you know, one year and so I was cycling through different things on Babel. Um, gosh, so I'm doing just so many different things. But I guess what I would say is I saw this workout online which is really cool. The seven was like a seven minute workout. And so I've just started, like I put together 10 exercises you could do without getting on the floor because I'm too lazy to get on the floor. So doing standing abs and standing push ups and squats and lunges. So I've created this routine for myself. So I'll say that that's my, like, personal development thing, because I've been sticking to it. I do it several times a week for like, a few months now.

Analiza: What's your definition of a Boss

Caroline: Well, Mama, you know, for someone who takes care of other folks doesn't have to be their kids. I mean, again, I was like a sandwich person when I was in my 20s. And so it's just someone who's a caregiver, but then also who, you know, takes charge of her own career, which might be a business, which might be the household, which might be a traditional job. But it's, it's a career, it's actually something that has a beginning, a middle, a legacy, like, there are goals that this person is driving towards. And so I just feel like you can, you can have a job and you can have kids and not be a boss, mama in the sense that you're just kind of just all over the place or clocking it in and out. You're not really present or proactive about either parenting or your profession. So I think there's an element of drive. And there's an element of intentionality that makes you a Boss Mama.

Analiza: And what advice would you give your younger self?

Caroline: Wow, I would say have more fun because it's all going to work out eventually. I was a big worrier when I was young. And looking back. Now I'm just like, wow, that was a lot of expended energy. Also that was thinner back then. So maybe it was a calorie burning thing. Maybe I should be worried more now that I'm not worried anymore. I'm getting wider. No, I just made that connection now. Analiza, this could be something I have to look into.

Analiza: Okay, Carolyn, where can we find you?

Caroline: So Dreamcareerclub.com. That's the easiest way to see what I'm about. Because everything is on there, my FIRE course is on there, my job search courses, and my career change book is on there. So that's the first place to go. And when you're on the site, you know, I have a free newsletter. And when it comes to 25 career mistakes, even smart professionals make because let's face it, you and I run into a lot of smart people. It's not for lack of intelligence, it is not for lack of talent, or ambition. You know, people wind up in the wrong career, because you know, they just might have not been thinking about it. And then they wake up and it's 20 years later, they're in a job, they don't enjoy all that much. And maybe their circumstances have changed. So we can always redirect, right? Never too late.

Analiza: And last question, Caroline, do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts?

Caroline: Gosh, any parting thoughts? I think the best time to change careers to go after what you really want is right now and you might think gosh, if I'd started this sooner, I see that a lot about real estate you know, I'm really talking to myself when I do advice. And I say oh, if I had just started in real estate you know earlier then I would have had all of these properties paid off by now. But you don't when you start and you weren't ready to do whatever it was before. But you're ready now and actually your own internal readiness trumps market conditions anytime. So get going. Analiza: Thank you Caroline. This is an awesome conversation. I learned a lot and that I'll be implementing for myself and my kids. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Caroline: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.