Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise Podcast. I'm Analiza Quiros Wolf, proud Filipina-American, mom of two, and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the US Air Force. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. We'll be talking with successful CEOs and C suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys. If you're a woman or woman of color, who wants a seat at the table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

It is my pleasure to be talking with Guerschmide Saint-Ange who's Haitian American. She is a lifelong education leader who started out as a classroom teacher, student recruitment leader, charter school authorizer, executive director of a charter school and now she is the Chief Operations and Talent Officer for the National Association for Charter School Authorizers. She's also got her own consulting practice where she helps other education leaders get great transformation with academics operations for their schools. She is a graduate of Hampton University with her Bachelor's and Master's there. She has a Master's in Education Policy and Management from Harvard. And she's also a mom, a Boss Mama who loves to travel with her husband and her daughter Caroline. So excited to have you Guersch. So first, let's start from the beginning from how you got from your upbringing to your position.

Analiza: I would say that my Haitian American upbringing, probably more Haitians than American has everything to do with like how I see the world, it really shaped my lens, I think particularly just being so rooted in revolution, and that if you don't like something, you are empowered to change it even if your station in life is one as an enslaved person, or someone who is not necessarily seen as having power. That has been part of my upbringing. And I believe that's why I chose education. Because when it came to really choosing something that I was passionate about, I actually chose something that made me very angry. And the ways in which we were educating students I didn't feel was truly creating this equal playing field for all students, especially when you look at the outcomes for black and brown children or children who live in low income communities. So I would say that my upbringing and the choices that my parents were able to make, I mean, they had to navigate a system that was in a language that they did not speak fluently, or that at least was not part of their native tongue and trying to fit. I don't even know how they navigated it, it is quite impressive that they were able to do that, especially such a complicated system as the New York City public school system, and they were able to find some of the best choices for myself and my siblings. And I think what was disheartening about it was that none of those choices were ever in our neighborhood. And so even from a really young age, this idea of what I was seeing on television of kids walking to school was like such a foreign concept, because the commute from home to school was always like an hour plus. And so I knew that there was something really wrong with that, I knew that I wasn't the only person experiencing that. And so what has spurred me over the last 15 years of being an educator is that every child deserves to have great options with an S in their neighborhood. And so that's what's driven every decision that I've made in my career is finding a role that helps me to bring that to fruition.

Guerschmide: I love that thru line, because I see it in you even today. And I want to talk about this idea of revolution, because there's a lot of passion and truthfully anger behind it. So I'm curious when you think about revolution, just in terms of what, how to take that anger and help others besides yourself, mobilize others in some of these systemic inequities? What strategies do you use to convert that?

Guerschmide: It's true, because like, it can't just be anger. I would say, one of the ways that I've been able to wield it is building community. There are other people who are just as frustrated as I am about the situation and like coming together and building a community with those folks has been really helpful. I'm upset about this. Are you upset about this? Oh, yes, I'm excited about it too. And like suddenly you feel more seen you don't feel alone in that frustration. Then finally just coming up with ideas that you can wield in order to push past the anger into actual action. At first I was like, Oh, I'm going to go be a classroom teacher. And like any other 20 year old, I was like, I'm going to change the world, one classroom at a time. And then I was like, Oh, that is not efficient. You know, it's not necessarily the best way to do it. And then I thought, well, I don't know enough about policy to really understand what are the rules that are at play, that are causing classrooms to look the way that they do, right, which is why I went and got the policy degree. And then from there have been connected with organizations that are working at scale for how we change education in this country, across the landscape, as opposed to just in the classroom. Now, I do believe that, I would say the other part of how you channel your anger in the revolution is everybody has a role to play in the revolution. There's this great quote that Howard Fuller has said a couple of times where he mentioned the storming of the Bastille during the French Revolution. He said there are those who are storming the Bastille. And there are those that are cheering on the people who are storming the Bastille. And then there are the coat holders of the folks who are cheering on the folks who are storming the Bastille. And so in his illustration, he's essentially saying that when it's time for revolution, every person has a role to play. There's not just one role. So I would say, finding a community of people who feel the same way you do about a particular situation, coming up with what are the possible solutions that could get us to a better place and then figuring out what is the role that you are to play in making this a better situation?

Analiza: Thanks for calling his example out. So when we talk about your career, you climbed the education ladder and had more impact and more impact. And now you've have that on a national scale. I'm curious, what experiences did you find the hardest?

Guerschmide: One of the things that I recognized about my career trajectory is I almost never had the same job twice. So part of what was challenging was figuring out, Okay, so now how do I do this job, because oftentimes, nobody else had had that job at the organization, I frequently find myself in a position to be like the first person to have this role at that particular organization. And so there's usually not a blueprint available to say, Oh, so and so you should do it this way. Being a bit more junior, not recognizing that that was freedom, but actually seeing that as more daunting, right? Because it felt ambiguous. And it was like I need to show and prove, but not really having a blueprint to show improvement against, right. So I would say, what were the things that were the most challenging was trying to figure out, like, what is my voice? And what is my access and entry point into this challenge? And also, there's no blueprint, so I have to figure this out on my own, it was just a whole lot of questions and trying to figure out how to make the fuzzy lines more clear.

Analiza: And this idea of proving herself, we're going to talk about myths. So it could be a myth of yours. But I'm curious Guersch, thinking back when you were a young child or even young in your career, what were myths that were either explicitly told to you or just implicitly told to you where you're just like, that actually wasn't so true.

Guerschmide: Showing proof is one of them, that you always have to show and prove. And it took me a long time to learn that when you’re get the job offer, you've done all the proving. Now you get to just do the job and what freedom I felt once I realized that another one is that like, sweat equity, is more valuable than anything else, in the context that it was told to me. You know, it was really quantity over quality. And there are some organizations where their entire culture is rooted in just doing more work. And whether or not that work is quality, or whether or not you're meeting your outcomes are not really that important. But it's really like, Oh, did you work hard? Do you work until two o'clock in the morning? And it's a myth that that's what's going get you to the top of the ladder? Or if it does, you'll be so tired that you can't even enjoy all the fruits of being at the top. And I would say the last myth was that rest and work are constantly at odds with each other, that there's this tense relationship between work and rest. And what I've been learning and what I've learned over the last, I would say a year or so is that they're actually very close partners, best friends. They're soulmates, if you will, it's really finding the right balance that works for you, between work and rest in order for you to actually make it to the point of your career that you're trying to get to and sustain it.

Analiza: So I'm curious about that point in my career because there's some people that say, Oh, yes, well, that works for you Guersch because people like me already know you and you have nothing to prove, and you're already at the top of your career. And you've got all these admirers just by stepping it but what about the new people and what about other than your 20s early 30s? What would you say to those people that are just like, I have to show I have to prove I got to do the sweat equity. I have to compromise my health.

Guerschmide: I would tell them the same thing. Part of the reason I've gotten to this point is because of something that quite a few of my colleagues have also gone through is that in our 20s, and even our early 30s, we were nose to the grindstone working and working, sometimes oftentimes at the expense of our families and definitely at the expense of ourselves. Not just burning out, but in some cases, having full on nervous breakdowns, and then realizing I didn't have to do that.

So if I could just rewind the clock of it, I would give this advice to a 20 something year old, I would say, find a culture that actually does value, rest. I wouldn't even say work life balance. I don't believe in work life balance, because I want a lot more life than I have work. I don't want those two things to be balanced at all. So I would say look for an organization that has all of the things that you need to thrive. If I knew that in my 20s, I probably would be so much further along than I even am now. As a 20 year old, when I was listening to the VPs at organizations that I worked in, I thought, It's easy for you to say because you're a VP. So of course, you can do that. The fact of the matter is, they were giving me wisdom that applied to the 20 year old version of myself. I just didn't know how I could do it, and I wasn't able to do it. Because the organizations that I was working for at the time, did not have a culture that would support that.

Analiza: I think that's important to name because sometimes Guersch, we might say, well, you just show them you work your quality, you're not about quantity, go home, have fun with your child. But the reality is that I will work in a culture that supports that. So to be really deliberate, not just what you're doing, but who you're doing with and how you're doing it is as important, maybe even more important than all the titles etc. So I just think it's so important that you named it. And so I'm curious about these lessons learned and different jobs along the way, we were told, You can't do it.

Guerschmide: I was told not just like you can't do it. But there were actual, like labels that were placed on me about why I couldn't that now when I look back on it, I'm like that is the silliest thing I've ever heard. And so I had been told that I was not a strategic thinker, I was told that I was not a visionary. And these were all sort of euphemisms for, you will never run an organization because we value like CEOs have to be big picture thinkers, they have to be strategic thinkers, they have to be visionaries. Those are the only people who run organizations, right? Well, that's not necessarily true. And it wasn't true that I was not a strategic thinker. It wasn't true that I'm not a visionary. And it's certainly not true that I would not ever run an organization like at this point, I've done that twice over. So clearly that person didn't know what they were. Those people were not clear about what they were talking about. But I think what I recognize now is there are ways of being. I don't know if those things were connected to me being a woman, being a black woman, me being a West Indian, if there were ways of being culturally that didn't jive with the culture of those places. And so for them, it meant that those things were going to be barriers to my ascension. And so I mean, clearly, it just wasn't true. But I didn't know that at 26. Whenever I was hearing these things, it was only over time, as those things became as I started to like lead organizations that I started to say, oh, maybe that wasn't true about me. But it took so many years and pieces of evidence to piece together to finally recognize that what they were saying was not true. So yes, I've been told that I can't do it. And so far they've been wrong.

Analiza: I think that you're naming a woman being a woman of color, that big data said that with who we are, there are automatic stereotypes that sometimes people put on us. And for me, it was well, you can't be athletic, or you can't lead. I'm like, Well, why is that? Because you're small? And how can you possibly lead all these men who were twice my age and et cetera, et cetera? So it's so fascinating to me, how people automatically assume things that when we're young, it's hard to say you don't know, actually, you're wrong. And thank goodness, we could in hindsight, say that they were wrong. But think of all the times when people do that teachers do that to their kids. I had teachers do that to me. And imagine that really well intentioned people do that. So I'm curious, like, what keeps you going when that happens? When they're like, nope, Guersch, you're not strategic. You're not a visionary. I can't do that job.

Guerschmide: Maybe this goes back to the revolution. But it was that small part of me that wanted to prove them looking back on it, that was still a trauma response. Moving forward in my career should have nothing to do with anybody else except what I want to do. And I would say, actually, the most powerful thing I've done to that demonstrates that I'm starting to quiet out those other voices is that, you know, I have the opportunity to lead in a different capacity, a couple of other different opportunities to lead in a different capacity, maybe about a year or so ago, that I then said no to, it would have been about me showing and proving to other people, yes, I can do this, not only can I do it, but I can do it three times. And I can do it four times, and I can be successful each and every time. That's a trap. And I really just have to get quiet and say to myself, what is it that you want? What do you really want? And when I finally was able to articulate this is the type of role that I want. This is the type of culture that I wanted in, that's when the universe opened it up for me. And I was able to just take that step, regardless of what lies or noise was coming from anyone else. And so I think part of what kept me going was a trauma response. What keeps me going now is the fuel to keep building the life that I want to have, and always centering my own desires about what I want.

Analiza: It's interesting, that change that moves from what does the world want from me to? Who am I? What do I want? Where will I thrive, so that I can have the life I want? So I'm curious, because this idea of a culture audit, it could see him, that's not usually where people go. So I'm curious if you were to advise me or the audience to say, okay, I get this as the role you want, and you've done your strengths and all those things. But let's check culture, what would you say here, check these three, five things? And how would they so that they could able to assess whether it's a good fit,

Guerschmide: What I would say is, look for evidence of what you are assessing, in multiple places, triangulate the data, because if you ask one person, say you're in an interview with, you know, the CEO of the organization, who typically, you know, is going to say wonderful things about their organization, right? If you ask a question, like, tell me a bit about your work life balance, and they're like, oh, we have wonderful work life balance, you know, people take PTO, and you know, you have your weekends off. And you know, whatever it is that they say, I would then ask someone else, a similar question, like, I've noticed that you've been at the organization for 11 years, What's kept you coming back. And if they are also naming things that sound like the type of culture that you want, then that's another way to like, get the data that you're looking for. Or if you are hearing, again, from the CEO, that there's this great work life balance, but you're noticing a ton of turnover. And that data doesn't actually line up. So asking like, oh, I noticed there's been a bit of turnover, can you give me some information as to why that is right? It may not be connected at all, to people feeling burned out, but maybe it does. So, again, it's about trying to find all these different ways to ask your questions, and to triangulate the data that you're getting not just from the one source, but from the website, from whatever data they've given you during the performance tests from other conversations that you're having from folks and see if there's any alignment between what people are saying and let that drive whether or not this is the culture that you want to be in.

Analiza: So as we look at the ascension to a top position, can you share Guersch, a pivotal moment when you learn what it really takes to get to the top.

Guerschmide: I used to think that what it took to get to the top was just really hard. You just work hard and you'll make it to retirement. That's a myth. Because it's and it's rooted in this idea that the world is a meritocracy. I think we all know well enough that it's not. And to the extent that you are a person of color, a woman, you come from a particular background, you have to work so much harder than other folks in order to make it to the top when I realized what it actually took to get to the top was it's two things. The first is I have this, like an old supervisor that I had, and just a fantastic human being. And what I noticed was that even in a culture that wasn't amazing, he was an incredible leader. He was incredibly empathetic. He had this big last, you know, he had a lot that would just fill up the entire room. And so he worked hard, but he also played hard. He was kind, he was really kind and what I recognized was being a leader was not about being Stern. Being a leader was not about always being serious. Being a leader was about seeing your people and there was a time when And I would have believed that vulnerability or empathy was a sign of weakness, but it's not true, like your humanity is part of your superpower, as a leader, once I've tapped into that, and I saw him as a model for doing that, well, that did more for me, in terms of like running charter school than any other training that I had gotten, was just like being a very human and humane leader, because people like to be led by decent people. And then the second thing was not just getting to the top. But sustaining and maintaining being at the top is finding the rhythm of rest, right? So there was a time when I would say, Okay, I have this huge presentation in a couple of days. And so it's like, how do I work 1518 hours to make sure that it is as perfect as it could possibly be. And then I would do the big presentation that I'm like, collapse afterwards, right? Like to spend the whole weekend sleeping just to recover from it. And now the mindset is, okay, I have this huge, we actually literally do have a staff retreat that I'm planning as we speak, and the way that I'm approaching it is okay, what are the specific work times like work blocks that I want to work on it, and then how am I also engaging in really deep rest ahead of it, because we all know something's going blow up, you need to have some capacity to catch the fact that things are going to go wrong, or blow up. And if you're tired, or if you're at capacity, you're just not able to then meet the moment when something happens. So those would be the two things it's like, be a decent human being, so that people will want to follow you. But to maintain being at the top, it's also finding, how do you work but also rest deeply,

Analiza: This idea of both being kind and then to others and kind of yourself, you have to do both. In the long run, if you really want to hit that top spot, you have to think both because to compromise either is going to set you on a path of I mean inevitably distraction, because you're not going be able to lead your people, you're not able to sustain yourself.

Guerschmide: Whenever there's a tension between being kind to yourself, and being kind to someone else. Choose Yourself, every time you're not a martyr, don't be a martyr, because ultimately, if it's like, oh, I need this person's asking for me to be available at a time when I really just need to be with myself, choose yourself, they'll probably understand. So chances are, I have found that people are far more understanding than we give them credit for. So I know especially for women leaders, and for moms, there's a lot of guilt that we carry. And we sort of the energy of guilt that we use is to then help others. And it really causes us to like to pour out from empty vessels, nothing comes out of an empty vessel. So ultimately, you have to shoot yourself.

Analiza: We have to name that because as women, especially with all societal female and familial pressure, there is this martyrdom, this giving syndrome that is if you want to prove yourself, prove your worth, prove being anything, not nothing, then you need to give. And it's not surprising why there's so much burnout. So choose yourself. And it'll line up now and in the long run. So thank you so much for that. So Geursch, tell me about you wanting to be Executive Director, CEO, was that a very deliberate path? How did you go about approaching this goal? If you said it deliberately.

Guerschmide: I did set it deliberately. Probably about six or seven years before I became an ED, It was the first time it came to mind for me. And initially, it wasn't about being at the top of an organization. It was about the fact that sort of what I said before, it's like, what's my entry point for trying to not solve this big problem with education, but at least make it better than what it is. And I realized that the executive director position was like, one part academic program and one part operations in business. And I felt like that was like the exact right combination of my skill set. At one point, I was throwing everything but the kitchen sink at it, right. I was applying for the fellowship that I didn't get, I was applying for the roles that I also didn't get. And at one point, I was talking to someone that I work with someone that I admire, and I said to her, “You know, I think you know, maybe I should just go to business school because a school is a business. She says to me without skipping a beat. She says that is like the dumbest thing I've ever heard you say she's, if you're a man, you would not think you're not ready now. And yet at the same time, there was this tension of like, well, if I'm ready now what happens, it's not coming to me. And I'm a spiritual person. So I do believe that when you are ready for something, the universe will present it to you. God will give it to you. So it was clear that I wasn't ready. There was some maturity I needed to do professionally at least. And it was exactly why I became an authorizer. And that role did so much for me around really understanding the sort of back office side of running a school, and then a charter school in particular. And then that role was when I met the supervisor that I was talking about earlier, who really helped me to shift my thinking around leadership is not what you do as much as it is, who you are, and how you bring that being into the space every single day. So in terms of the very specific things that I did, I tried everything. one, and two, like I did have enough faith to know that eventually, I would get to be in that role. And so I thought about the places where I had some deficits, and went ahead and like, try to get other roles that would help me to bridge that deficit.

Analiza: That's smart, how you assess, here's where I already have experience, here's where I don't, and then make sure I get those. Because when you get to the table, and they're asking you, you can actually show, unfortunately, why women have to show all the things versus our counterparts who can just show up with 50% of the job experience. So in terms of the climb to being a CEO, and then actually sitting in the seat, gosh, can you talk about adversity? What adversity were you maybe not surprised or surprised to face?

Guerschmide: I was really surprised at how constraining that seat is. So I'm used to being someone who in a meeting, like I could just name the elephant in the room and just say what's on my mind, I've not really ever been afraid to be that person. But I found that in the Executive Director's seat, people are sort of waiting for you to say something. And you can say something that completely changes the direction of the conversation, when in fact, you were looking for collaboration. But oftentimes people don't want to speak after you, or they don't want to say something that contradicts what you just said. And so at the beginning of me being in that seat, I had to learn how to make it like a safe space for us to truly collaborate. But then I also learned that there was so much I had to keep to myself. And I really learned what it meant that like leadership is very lonely. I just couldn't have any confidants. And he will comment on my team, because there were some things that I was grappling with that were like personnel issues, and I couldn't discuss that with my team, or like some strategy things as if I released this at this point. And folks know exactly how I'm thinking about it, it might take us into a direction that we're not actually ready for. And so, you know, I don't know that I had a full appreciation for what people meant when they said, leadership is lonely, I certainly experienced that.

Analiza: So lonely. And the thing about confidence is real, because there really aren't that many, if any models. Guersch, then you're in the seat. And you're learning about what it really takes to be all the things a leader, a mom, partner, trying to take care of yourself, can you share a moment when you really learned what it would take?

Guerschmide: Yeah, one of the things that I was very purposeful about when I got into that role was I wanted to make sure to model for the rest of my team, what healthy rest and work would look like, right, even as I was learning it myself. And what I learned was even as a school leader for a turnaround school, is that there is a way for you to get meaningful work done. But also make sure that you have time for yourself and family. And it really is about being clear about your boundaries for yourself, I realized I started to learn that nobody can break your boundary, but you so somebody can ask you to do something that is against this particular boundary that you had, but you're the only person who can actually give them permission, right? You can say no, and offer them a different type of solution. And so I felt empowered to do that. It's possibly because of the seats that I was in. And so there was that. But then I recognized that when it came to thriving, this is when I started to really learn this lesson of like, culture matters. And so I learned the type of culture I needed to be in to thrive. And I made this very clear list. It's like five things that I need in order to thrive at an organization. And that's, you know, regardless of seat and once I recognize that all those things were not present. I said, Oh, then I need to find a place where all of those things are present. That's when I realized that, well, it's not just about boundaries, but it's not only about that, it's also about understanding how to thrive, it takes a lot of practice to learn that over time, and it changes with the season. What I need now as a mom and a wife is different from what I needed when I was single and without a child, but I did need something back then I just wasn't clear about what it was. And so the idea that only parents deserve to have boundaries is also a myth. And so everyone should participate or engage in the practice of figuring out what it is that's going to help you to thrive. So for me, those are the two pieces, it was like, oh, figuring out what my boundaries are knowing that I'm the only one who could break my boundary, and then figuring out is this the right culture for me to thrive in? Is it wonderful? If it's not, then I should do something about it.

Analiza: Guersch, what were the five things?

Guerschmide: One thing was I wanted to be at the decision making table, I didn't necessarily need to be at the top of the organization. And as a matter of fact, when I was looking for my next role, I was purposefully looking for not being in that seat, because I wanted to be at the decision making table, not because I wanted to make the decisions. But because I wanted to impact how we roll decisions out to people, I want to make sure that decisions don't prioritize process over impact. And so how it lands on people is really important to me. So I wanted to be in an organization where I would have that seat. The second piece was about salary. I needed to make sure that there was a salary where I could not just take care of myself and take care of my family responsibilities, but also enjoy the fact that I am a hard worker, and I want to experience deep breaths and nice vacations. One of the things I like to do is travel the world with my family. And it's not just having the time to do that. It's also having the finances to do that as well, because that was the second piece. And honestly, if they came in even a little bit under what I was looking for the answer was no. I just had the faith that the organization would come with the right salary. The third thing was, Is this a place where someone who looks like me who's in the skin I'm in can thrive. And what's the evidence of that. So I was specifically looking for an organization that didn't just have a DEI statement, but was an anti racist organization. And the way that I was going to be able to suss that out is what policies and practices do they currently have in place that line up with the DEI. And if they only had a statement, but couldn't point to any actual policies or processes that were rooted in DEI then it was enough for me. The fourth thing was about a policy around remote work, something that was clear whether it was hybrid, or we have remote policy, or were 100% remote, but they were just very clear about what is the policy around remote work, I think especially just given the world that we're living in right now. I wanted an organization that was responsive to that. And the last thing was, am I being set up for success here? And how so from technology and are they going to give me all the software that I need to do the work? Am I going to have the goals and clarity around what the expectations are to feel set up for success? And what is communication like? So that piece is pretty much a catch all, if you will, but how do they set people up to be successful in their roles? And are they clear about that? And so I fortunately found an organization where all five of those things are working well. And I think the reason I was able to articulate those things is because I looked back on my career, and thought about what was going right in that past job. But then what went wrong? And so being able to look over my career, I was able to say, Oh, these are the five things. And also given where I am now in this season of my life. What else do I need? And that's how I came up with that list.

Analiza 33:55 So thoughtful and deliberate. I love that there's a tie in the past and with some of the tough jobs that you've taken that you actually use those to your benefit to say, Okay, well now I know what I don't want, what do I actually wish that I had? So that's pretty great. Tell me Guersch, what advice would you give about being a boss at work, family and life?

Guerschmide: Yeah, so I've said it throughout this conversation. I think it bears repeating. It really is about finding the right rhythm of work and rest that works for you. So I'll give you an example of something that works for me. I absolutely need to get at least seven hours of sleep. And on a great night. I'm getting nine hours of sleep. Now most people probably like a lot of sleep. But that's what I need. And once I figured out that's what I needed. I didn't judge myself about it. I liked it. That's what I need. So there's that and it's recognizing that every night that I get that I'm actually setting myself up for a great work day. And this is what I mean by rest and work or not at all. As with each other in the mornings, I have to do something that's grounding. For me. Sometimes that's exercise. Sometimes that's prayer and meditation. Sometimes it's praise and worship, like just something that is grounding for me before I go into my work day. And then I have my workday with whatever breaks I need to have. And then at the end of the day, which is typically around, maybe 5:30/6pm, I leave my office, and I change out of my work clothes. And now I'm in my house. And so now I'm in the space where I live, and the workday is done until I get my eight to nine hours. And then I started like the next day, but for me, that's the rhythm that works. That's what makes this sustainable. And if something happens at work, and, you know, there's this crisis or this, there's this emergency, I have space, I've created space where it could, you know, be maybe I'm done at seven today. But because I'm not working until 9/10 o'clock at night, every single night, I'm creating space to allow myself to recover from the day, every single day. And to me, that's what makes this season in my life so different professionally than other seasons is that I feel like this is sustainable for a length of time that I would not have had before like, typically three to five years, and I'm burning out of the role. This feels very different. That's what it really takes. And that's the advice that I would offer is find the cycle that works for you, have work, recovery, rest, and then work again, and don't judge yourself for whatever it is that you need. If you need it. That's what you need. And that's all.

Analiza: Nine hours Guersch. I mean, that's pretty crazy.

Guerschmide: I outsource a lot of things. You know, like, I haven't done this in a while, but I have outsourced things like cleaning my house to a service or, you know, I used to braid my daughter's hair and myself wash days and braid hair. It was like a three hour process. You know, all the moms of black little girls know, this process is an arduous one. She goes to a salon now. So there are just certain things that I'm like, I can't be the one who does it. And that's how I'm able to get the seven to nine hours every night because I don't believe I have to be the person who does it all. So I outsource a ton of things that I used to feel guilty about not doing myself.

Analiza: It's interesting how that keeps coming up the martyrdom of the giving and how the guilt that comes with it, you see it and you let it go. Because when you pump into yourself, he or she pumped into your entire family and your team. So that is a recurring theme throughout.

Guerschmide: Yeah, absolutely. And so now I have more time to like, watch Turning Red with my daughter, because I'm not exhausted, you know. And so we have to remember, like, we're always making trade offs. And so if you are the person doing everything, then you're exhausted. The trade off is you don't get to spend the quality time that you want to spend with your family or with yourself because you're too tired to do that. And true work life balance of work. Life integration is about the amount of energy you have, after work to do the things that really make your heart sing. Right. And so if you don't have that energy, then there's something going wrong. So finding that right with them is what I'm into.

Analiza: So with that, let's go ahead and lighten it up, Guersch.Let's do lightning round questions.

Guerschmide: Yes.

Analiza: Chocolate or vanilla.

Guerschmide: Both, and strawberry, all of the flavors.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Guerschmide: Take out but I find cooking relaxing.

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Guerschmide: Go on the beach. I'm not jumping out of a plane.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks in sandals?

Guerschmide: I wouldn't admit it if I did.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of one to 10-10 being Mariah Carey.

Guerschmide: Almost six, but I'm not going to prove it here.

Analiza: What's the recent book you read?

Guerschmide: I read Own Your Greatness, Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and it's like this long subtitle. It's by Lisa Orby-Austin and it's a fantastic book. And I also read the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry.

Analiza: What's your favorite way to practice self care?

Guerschmide: So many things, prayer meditation, getting my eight to nine hours of sleep, and bubble baths.

Analiza: Guersch tell me what you got out of Boss Mamas.

Guerschmide: So again, a friend, I gained a community right? And so now there are these women that I can reach out to and like to ask advice of but very specifically, I was paired with someone that I can say is a friend and so we text each other. And so, you know, the point I was making earlier is that you want to have a community for the revolution. And I certainly think that she is a community member for the revolution. I just appreciate that it was a really great thing to get out of Boss Mamas.

Analiza: What's your definition of a Boss Mama?

Guerschmide: Boss Mama is a mama who has found the right rhythm. that works for themselves, for their family, for their work, who engages in deep rest, they play hard, and they work hard. And they've released any guilt that they feel about the choices they make.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Guerschmide: You can take that break. Go ahead, take that PTO, you can enjoy it. And thank you for taking care of us. Like it's because of the choices you've made that I'm sitting here right now. So thank you so much, girl. That's what I would say to her.

Analiza: Where can we find you?

Guerschmide: I am all over LinkedIn. I've actually purged social media. It's been really great. Maybe that's my favorite self care. Social media, but I am still on LinkedIn.

Analiza: Do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts for the audience?

Guerschmide: I think in terms of parting thoughts, is that you're so much better than you even know. And so give yourself the grace. Give yourself compassion. Give yourself the forgiveness every time because you deserve it.

Analiza: Oh, my shoulders relax with that girl. She's so beautiful. Thank you so much for these great stories. And I appreciate you.

Guerschmide: Thank you so much.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time today to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, please share it with someone else. You can share the link and posts on Facebook and say check it out. Lastly, I want to thank you for being a listener and you can go to get a free self care bonus called juice your joy at Analizawolf.com/freeBonus. Thank you so much.