Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise Podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipina American mom of two, and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the US Air Force. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. We'll be talking with successful CEOs and C suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys. If you're a woman or woman of color, who wants a seat at the table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I'm really excited today to be talking with Erica Manuel. She's the CEO of the Institute for local government, which we'll call ILG. It's a nonprofit education and training affiliate of the League of California Cities, the California State Association of Counties and the California Special Districts Association. So for all of these organizations, it's 2500 local agencies. So ILG, which Erica is the CEO of, serves these people, these agencies and they deliver real world expertise to help them navigate really complex governmental issues, build really great leaders and also trust in communities. Before ILG, Erica served at the Sacramento Municipal Utility District, the Office of the Governor for Arnold Schwarzenegger and at Edelman Public Relations. She has many awards, including being named Comstock Magazine's Top 19 women leaders in 2020. She and I studied together at Stanford, she has also studied at Boston College's Carol's Graduate School of Management. And also something similar is Northwestern University Kellogg School of Management. So I'm super excited to talk with Erica today. And with that, Erica, we're going to kick off with a question about your upbringing and tell us Erica, how did your upbringing shape your career path and your dreams and get you where you are today?

Erica: I think that is one thing that just definitely shaped me, California born and raised. And I started off in the Bay Area, which is, you know, where Stanford is, the lower end of the middle class family. We were comfortable, we were not rich, I was one of four kids. My mom was very much committed to making sure that every single one of her children had the best education possible. And she would do literally anything to get us to a place where she thought we could learn and be effective and be taught, you know, how to, um, how to succeed. And so even though I was one of four, my mom shuttled all four of us all over the peninsula in the Bay Area to various schools. And so every one of my siblings, and I went to very good private schools, and we transferred to another very good school, which was for sixth through 12th grade. And it was a round trip commute of three hours a day. And it was a huge sacrifice that our family made some of the schools that we went to, and I didn't realize this at the time, I was young, we're very upper class, like and I look back on it, and even now, you know, the alumni at some of these organizations and institutions are really well known names, right? We left that environment after I think I was in 10th grade, and my family decided to move us to the Central Valley. So we went from this very elite kind of very small community of colleagues and friends and you know, people teachers in a very high level academic institution to a very tiny town in Central Valley rural, you know, and in both places, I was probably one of a handful of black people. My brother and I took up two of those spots, right. And even in the small Central Valley town, you know, interestingly, we were on the higher end of the socio economic kind of status level, when we got to the Central Valley compared to where we were when you're in the Bay Area, all of that kind of shaped me, and how I could connect with people that were so different for me has always been a sort of a life's mission. Professionally, I have always worked this since the age of about 15. At 15. It was because I needed some spending money. By the time I was 18. It was because I really needed some college money. I paid for college, and most of it I got a lot of scholarships, I got some loans, but mostly it was out of pocket. So there was a lot of work to work for the literal like tuition to pay the checks to continue to go to school. So that was a I don't know what kind of a blessing and a curse. I think I got a really great experience. I didn't really enjoy my undergrad experience as much as I could have because I was always thinking about those other kinds of things, those requirements, those responsibilities, but the blessing from it, I think is that I had a great resume by the time I got out. So I was fully in the job market and I was able to do some wonderful roles I've done like you mentioned I've done public relations. I've done advertising, I've done high tech. It's been amazing. And now I'm kind of more in the Public Affairs space in the government space. But when I look back on my career, it's really just been a career of dealing with change management and going into organizations and finding the ways to move the needle for an organization in a way that will help advance some of their strategic goals. I'm a mom, I have a great kid, he's the same as Aiden, and right now, he's 15. And he is both my light and my struggle, but I absolutely adore him.

Analiza: So the beauty of me getting to know you, Erica, even deeper level is I get to actually share just what it was like as your roommate, and then also friend, and how you would do these amazing things like do double majors, and also run the Multicultural Career Center, and also have dinners for these high level executives, which I got to be invited to once and struggled with what how to order an appetizer, and you're running the dorm musical, and also singing and amazing talent. And you also, you know, a leader of our fraternity, which you invited me into and brought so many people into, but I want to talk about just how smooth you are, and just how much I had no idea that you were financially. Funny this because, you know, I was an ROTC kid, I had no idea that the gas money didn't come from your parents, and I did have help from my parents, too. So I'm just like, how did you do that?

Erica: I'm a very private person. I think one thing I learned probably from my mother, too, is that pride, we had a lot of pride. There was a commercial when I was growing up, and it was probably you might remember it too. It was like an antiperspirant commercial, right? It's like, never let them see a sweat. And it might be my mom, it might be just sort of a black cultural thing. You never show your dirty laundry, you keep the dirty laundry in the closet, you don't talk about those things. And I was never ashamed of it. But it was when you're surrounded by and you know, this, like my freshman year, my next door neighbor was a Hewlett and down the hall was a Rockefeller and you know, you're dealing with people that have all so much, it's not something you're going to elevate, right. And I have a very difficult time, even to this day, asking for any amount of help. And so for me, I was like, I can do this, I can cope, I can. I'm resilient, I can move, move this needle. And it just was what it was. I will tell you that in hindsight, I probably have some residual trauma from some of that. But what it's taught me is what I don't want my kids to have to go through. It's taught me that there's people behind me and coming after me that I want to help lift up in that way so that there's not that experience it but it's taught me a lot about you know, my shortcoming, like I said, not asking for help is not always a really great trait know when to call in the support.

Analiza: So humble Erica, I mean, I have to also share, as I've researched about you, and it's like wow, Erica is of course done amazingly, the transition from Stanford and then stopping out, then I think that's when you took your Edelman job.

Erica: I stopped out of college because I ran out of money. I did my halfway through my senior year, and ran out of tuition money. And it was this long time coming, because I'd always be a little bit late paying the bill like a little bit late, but it was always good. And then something happened my senior year. And it was just a horrible predatory lending thing I will tell you, they still do it to college students, when they did it to me, they will throw credit cards at you like crazy, right? The credit card companies were sending credit card after a credit card. I was like this is interesting. And I will tell you that financial literacy is not something that's very well certainly at the time was not really highlighted for youth. And so I'm like 20 years old, and I've got these really ridiculous credit cards with very high limits. And I was pretty responsible with them. But they sent me a card. And I put one of the tuition like I think the first semester of my senior year or a fresh quarter of senior year on a credit card. And they sent the bill to my mother's house instead of to college and the College Address. And so I was always great about paying them off. But I forgot about that one. And I went back home to my mom's house two months after I, you know, used it and I was behind and the interest payments were coming in, I was getting collection calls and all of these things. It was this crazy experience where it freaked me out. And I was like, I can't do this. I need to stop like this is out of control. I need to fix this. And that was the moment for me that I was like, I need to stop, I need to just take a break because it's gonna spiral and I was so freaked out that my credit was gonna be like a wreck forever and that you know that I took it so seriously. And so, you know, I remember moving out of our dorm under cover of night like I did between Christmas break. I didn't tell you I didn't tell anybody. I just like moved out. And I will tell you like so much of my life has been like a blessing curse, right? So I have amazing relatives and my aunt in Sacramento, California was living in Sacramento and my mother's oldest sister, and I remember calling her and I didn't have a great relationship with I didn't know her that well. She was my aunt. I called her and I asked her if I could come live with her and pay her rent and work because I felt like Sacramento had better job prospects than my hometown in the Central Valley with no economic development, right? So she said absolutely no problem without even hesitation, like she didn't even say, let me call you back. She was just like, absolutely under one condition, you do not pay us any rent, and you promise me you will go back to school. And I was like, Okay, I will do that. And so I lived with them for what was going to be a year and moved to Sacramento. And the most humbling thing I've ever experienced was feeling like, you know, top of the mountain, I have gone to Stanford, this is gonna be easy. I'm gonna find a job that sort of sending out resumes, projection, rejection, and it was humbling to be like, I don't have a degree. I don't have anything. I've graduated from high school. Like, I'm not doing something right. I've never been rejected for anything in my life. So I was rejected. The first month, I was pretty much rejected from every job I applied for, and I was like, this is not going well. I was like, Nope, I gotta make some money. So I started temping. And thank God, I temped. And every place I temp loved me and then wanted to hire me. And then I was like, basically on this track, and I was starting to pay me a lot more. And I was getting really, really attached. And I was like, I need to not get stuck. And so I actually did go back to my kind of thoughts around what I want to do when I grow up. And I applied at Edelman, and that was one of the first jobs that I had was at Edelman and I was in my first start there, I was an intern, because I was like, I need to scale back. I just need to get back into the field. And that was one of my first jobs there and paid me a lot less than all the other jobs I had been getting over time, but it got me back on track. And I did that for a couple of months. And then I left that job and went back to Stanford officially and finished up and then I ended up coming back to Edelman when after I graduated I came back to that office. And I worked at Edelman and a couple different offices, actually because it was a great organization.

Analiza: I mean, I remember the story's about how you would I think it was Wesley Snipes was hitting on you.

Erica: Yeah, actually, that was a different ad agency. But yeah, I did entertainment PR for a while and we had some phenomenal I mean, I literally got to do such cool stuff like we had that was for a publicist dialogue. We were a marketing firm advertising agency for the entertainment industry. So we had all the big movie studios when we did premieres and all the promotion for really big name movies and did get to meet some celebrities. And some of them did hit on me. But I was young and naive at the time.

Analiza: Erica, I appreciate these stories so much, and I wouldn't go to you also, you're such a renegade. I mean, all the things that you did, I had no idea what was going on. Except I'm sure it was smart. Because everything you did was smart. And you then were like, I'm getting married. And I remember that being like, wow. Okay, great. And you were the first one that I went to a wedding for, which is this perfect, beautiful wedding. So I just want to talk about that, because we had this reflection time afterwards, and you had all these really wonderful reflections.

Erica: I am a serial relationship girl. I've always kind of been in one. And that comes a little bit I think from not, I'm a really good judge of character. And I take that very seriously. Like, you're an amazing person, I don't have a ton of friends, I don't have a ton, so I have a very small circle of people that I really like and really trust. And that's been great. I can't say that I'm the most like out there person in that I haven't probably you won't find me out on 52 dates, like I'm not on any apps like that, like I've never gonna be that girl. But I will tell you that, you know, I've always found people that are amazing. My ex husband was an amazing person. He's a great father to my kid. And I got married pretty young, probably a little too young. But he was so much the right person for me at the time and an amazing human being, I will say know yourself, before you dive all the way in, I am still learning who I am. But I think that's the one thing I would say is about, like you said, surprised like I'm getting married, I didn't really know who I was yet. I knew who I kind of thought I wanted to be. And I knew the person I was with was really great. That may not always be who you're going to be forever. And so make sure you're with somebody who's gonna evolve with you and be comfortable with that evolution. And they'll want to come along for that ride. And you know, as I grew into who I was, that I know, I'm not easy. I know, I'm super demanding. And I'm super ambitious. And I'm super like, where are we going next? And that can be kind of an exhausting thing. So know thyself, know thyself.

Analiza: Wonderful tips. So let's go about this idea of myths because we are ambitious people. And there's lots of things for example, that I wish I had known that I thought I knew when I was young. So I'm curious, Erica, going back because you were on the fast track going to these private schools doing really well going to Stanford, but what were those myths that you're just like, those are not true?

Erica: Never let them see you sweat. Like that's a myth. There's this idea that you always have to be strong. You always have to be okay. You always have to be presentable. You always have to be polished. You always have to be just fine, right and maybe great. And there are parts of that that are just in my DNA that are never going to shift from where I am like I will not leave the house. So if I'm not dressed like I'm staying in your meal, I'm going to completely be in my sweats in my jammies. But if I'm going out, I don't own very many jeans and I don't wear them outside, like, I don't even wear pants that often I wear a dress girl, right? I just kind of, I'm always kind of dressed up. And that's just where I'm comfortable. But thinking about just like the core of who you are learning that it's okay, especially as a leader to show vulnerability. That's an important thing that we've learned, I think very recently that it's okay now to demonstrate your humanity and to demonstrate that you're not always 150% right, some days are bad. So we turn the page, I think in society very recently, but we definitely turn to the page and I think that vulnerability can be a strength and an endearing factor for leaders. Another thing my mom used to say, as a black person, and as a woman, you have to work twice as hard as everyone else to succeed. She'd always mentioned that. And I was like, I always took that to heart. And I think that's true. But it's also false. Because in my experience, I've worked three or four times as hard for the same level of recognition or respect or compensation, or just even just credit for the work. And so I agree, but also, it's sometimes even more than that.

Analiza: You have to be human, yourself and be vulnerable, and also to be human and to see others as people feeling what really matters? Is that debt really, really matter, or is there something at home that really, really matters?

Erica: Well, so much the phrase says, who I say this is my team all the time. But why? Why do we have to do it? Why do we have to do it then? Who said we have to do it like this? Right? We know, we are the masters of our own destiny, let's decide. And that is the coolest thing about being in charge is that you can be like, let's do it differently. Let's change that up to matches the strategy, let's just change it up.

Analiza: That is the coolest thing. It's also the reason why Erica, I love seeing you as CEO, because I think that's how change happens. It's nice to be able to support leaders, but to be at the top spot, and then actually decide who says it can be different. And we're still on strategy. So hurray for you. And then tell me more Erica, you know, in growing to be CEO, what did you find were secrets, like things we didn't learn at Stanford things that mentors didn't tell us, I think

Erica: What gave me maybe even a little bit of the competence to even want to take on a role like this was realizing I'd be in rooms with people I really, really admired. And I would realize that they were human beings, and that they weren't, I'd had put them on this pedestal of perfection. And I want to emulate all the things and when you start to see them in the real light, you realize they're not as good. They're not quite what I thought, right. And so something I learned certainly is that the person at the top isn't always the smartest person in the room. That's number one. And I would go so far as to flip that and say that the smartest person in the room probably isn't always a good leader, either. And you see that, and that is definitely something that I've seen. And that's helped me a ton with my own imposter syndrome, which is like, do I even belong here? But it's like, knowing that these people and they always have you know that that's the same where they put their pants on one leg at a time just like you and it's like, yeah, and they have some serious issues likely as well. And they're not always as competent as we think they are. And they also have the same questions, the same thing. Anxiety is and maybe makes the wrong decision sometimes. And sometimes, we're the right people to be in the room.

Analiza: That's awesome. I remember that. hearing your story reminds me that I was motivated to become CEO, because I saw a person in that seat. And I'm like, if you can be CEO, obviously, I can be CEO. Right? A long time. So yeah, this is interesting to see that people are human, even as CEOs. We make mistakes. And that's okay. So yeah, that's beautiful. Tell me did you have this goal in your head? I imagine you were so thoughtful about your career. Did you have it targeted at 28? And I'm going to be CEO and write that down in your calendar, I feel like you did.

Erica: I didn't know it's so funny. I have not mapped my career trajectory, not at all, you know, every place that I go. And I think this is maybe a good thing. Even though I'm a super planner, I like to have goals that I can work to attain. But in every organization I've been in, I've been at a point where I go, looking up, I don't know what that job is. I don't really want that one. And for various reasons. It could be because I'm like, it doesn't look like fun, or that is definitely not something I'd be good at, or that's my passion. I don't really feel like I want to commit all that time to that. And when I reached that point in organization, I decided that I'm going to be open to other opportunities. Very rarely do I apply for jobs, usually they come my way, which is a really amazing and remarkable thing. And I'm still in awe of that, but it's a really great thing to just be like, Ah, nope, don't want that one. Let's look somewhere else. And so I haven't mapped it out. I didn't say this is what I want to do when I'm 28. I mean, if you remember in high school, there was a time when I was plotting finance on Wall Street and thinking of going like the New York route. And really just, I follow Joy, I follow Oh, I feel good doing this, I follow the passion of the work. And so I don't know that it would always look like that I would have this title or that I will have it again, I may not do it again, the next time, I think I want to always be in a place where I'm giving back or I'm feeling really appreciated, where I'm feeling like I'm contributing to the world that I'm making a difference and that I'm living a truce, that's mine, where I don't have to kind of dread going to work every day, that's always going to be the thing and where I can be myself, I can be a mom, I can be all the things right, you still do want to have it all. So I'm a little bit of a lean in. And I'm a little bit of a Brene Brown, right?

Analiza: Let's talk about that. Because you hear these things, you can't have all of the things you can't have it all, at least not all at once. And as you know, and I know where I'm not about that we can have it all, we just have to be clear. So talk to us about that. Did you always do that?

Erica: I will define all, right. I mean, if all is so subjective, so maybe the answer to that question for me in and what I would recommend for anyone else is to say, define what your all is, right? Because it's going to be very different. Mine is going to be different for you than yours is. And so for me having it all, even having it all today, the definition of what that is today is so different than what it was three years ago. So I will never forget, I was probably six months into the pandemic. And I have had the opportunity to drive my kid to and from school every day. And prior to that I driven him to school, almost always, but I would kind of outsource the pickups because it was crazy. As the schools were opening back up and things were transitioning out it was last year, it was the end of the school year. And I said Babe, you know, we're probably about to have the mandates lifted. Little did we know, but we're gonna have a mandates lifted, sounds like things are going to open up soon, I'm going to start traveling again. So let me know what you like about what we've been doing and what you don't like. And he thought about and he's a pretty introverted kid, he goes, I really like that you picked me up every day, and he dropped me off every day, I really, really want to keep that. And like, okay, and so now for me, having it all means that I arrange for the time and the space to always be able to pick him up and drop him off. Because he said that that matters to him. And so now that matters to me. So I will not take a business trip on the week that I have him, I will not take a meeting over that time, you know, I will make sure that my schedule accommodates, and then I will make sure that I have the flexibility to be his mom, to me, that's what having it all is, in addition to the professional goals and all the things you want to do. That's the piece that makes it matter for me. So yeah, you can do it. But you have to know what your boundaries are, you have to know what your goals are, you know what your all is, and know that it's not going to look like somebody else's.

Analiza: That's so fair, I remember I was talking with someone and they said, Erica, well, I want to have this really well paying job, I want to be passionate about it. I don't want to work many hours, I want to travel all over the world, I want to not have any sort of household things to do, I want to outsource all of it. You know, I think about Wall Street, I was just listening to this long list. And it's not that I want to say to her, you can't have what you want. It's just that there was no clarity to me about what was the most important thing on that list. And when you have everything, you're optimized for nothing, right? Because I want all the things I'm not clear about, then it's not surprising, then that could lead to satisfaction. So if you're just like, I want to be there for Aiden in the mornings and the afternoons, that's what I'm doing. And I'm going to hit these goals at work, boom, those two things, you optimize for it. And it's magical how it winds up, but to be deliberate about what those most important things are. It's critical. So let's talk about what you have, in terms of advice for women, trying to make it to the top. If you were back talking to you and me when we were our old we were what would you tell us as the advice like a couple pieces of advice, then, if we want to be I want to be CEO. So what would you tell me?

Erica: I mentioned that my mom, she raised us and trained us to be comfortable in every space to be able to, for lack of a better word, assimilate, and you know, blend in and be fine. That is your tool, right? And I think I can excel at that. And I'm good at that. I've managed that over my career. And certainly in my life, I feel very comfortable being the one, the only the youngest or whatever. Right. And that's probably a good thing. But I do think that for a while we were taught to emulate these leaders. And as we discussed, some of them weren't that great. They just happened to be men. And I think now I think very differently about it. And I say to most women don't try to be a man just being a woman is a superpower in and of itself and that You know, we're different. And that's a good thing to lean into that distinction. All of the things that make you different and interesting and unique and your approach different is what will make I think your organization different. And certainly they talk about the diffusion of innovation and how you can bring different energy. And I think women bring different energy. And so that's something that I think is really important is just try to be you don't try to be some other person that you've seen that does it, there's certain aspects certainly that you can emulate. But don't try and become a, you know, a clone of someone else. And certainly don't try to mask yourself just because, right. And I think that that's something that I've learned over time. And then also, you know, it goes back, I think a little bit to the conversation we were just having about how do we know if we're to have it all? And for me, someone once told me to think about it in the context of your tombstone, what do you want on your tombstone? In the end, we're gonna we're all gonna die someday, in theory. So unless Elon Musk, you know, figures out how to keep us all alive forever, and we're all going to die. And there's going to be a tombstone in what you want it to say, and you can't put a whole laundry list on there. Because it's not all that important. What are the five 710 words that you want there, and that's how you prioritize your life. And you shouldn't compromise on those key values that are going to matter to you, when you etch them in stone, you shouldn't compromise, you shouldn't play the game to win and then lose at the end, right. So I guess it's just knowing the cost of playing that game and play it the way that you will feel proud of, and then really being able to find those life boundaries and those life goals and trying to live in that truth, right, and not crossing lines that are going to make you feel like you have given up a part of yourself. And I think a lot of people especially now are seeing how important it is sometimes to just walk away and not feel bad about that. And as a person who's both competitive and ambitious, walking away isn't something I would ever think of doing in the past. But now I feel very confident in my ability that if I ever felt like it's time to walk away. And so just knowing about that tombstone and thinking about that as a center for what my values or my goals are and what my real all is, that's what I do. That's what I would like to tell people to remember.

Analiza: Lovely, know yourself, stay true to yourself and believe in yourself. That's great. I’ll write my tombstone right now,

Erica: I honestly rewrite my tombstone regularly. But as you say, I think Mom is on there for sure. And I always want to, like just not just mom, but like, I want to be a good mom. Like really, like, I want my kids to really like me. There's another saying that I like that, you know, people might not remember what you said, but they will remember how you made them feel. And so I always wanted to make people feel a certain way. And I think that's what I aspire to, to be a person that makes other people feel like they are important and special. And that's what I would want to bring both to the community, both to my professions, to my kid, to my family, to my friends, like just being that person that hopefully felt like there was a home there, you know, lovely with that.

Analiza: Erica, let's do lightning round questions.

Erica: Okay.

Analiza: Chocolate or vanilla?

Erica: Definitely vanilla

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Erica: Definitely cooking.

Analiza: Climbing a mountain or jump from a plane?

Erica: Climbing the mountain.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Erica: God? No. No, of course not.

Analiza: How would you read your karaoke skills on a scale of one to 1010 being Mariah Carey? Don't be humble.

Erica: Oh, yeah, no, I am a solid. If I sing, which is a very, very rare thing. If I sing on a salt, I'm only going to sing a song I'm pretty good at which is a solid eight.

Analiza: Recent book you read?

Erica: So the recent book that I actually finished was The color of law by Richard Rothstein. But the recent book that I'm reading, I'm reading Bell Hooks about love. I'm reading the book of joy, which is years late, but I haven't finished that one yet. This is what I'm reading with my kid. Why are all the black kids sitting in the back of the room?

Analiza: What's your favorite way to practice self care?

Erica: For me, it's music. It's live music. It's seeing it, it's performing it. It's listening to it. It's music 100 percent.

Analiza: What's a good professional development you've done?

Erica: I just finished one. So I'll plug that one American Leadership Forum is a great national program. I was blessed to be in a class during COVID, which was a unique experience in and of itself. But the American Leadership Forum it's based on a coral model, and it's fantastic. And I highly recommend it if you can get into that program to do that one.

Analiza: What's your definition of a Boss Mama?

Erica: Oh, gosh, I think a Boss Mama is someone who gets up every morning. gives her all for that day, to life, to the job, to the family, to the things, and some days she gets it really right. And then maybe some days she gets it totally wrong. And on those days, she just gives herself some grace and probably takes a minute to exhale, and then gets back up, you know, straightens the crown and starts all over again.

Analiza: And what advice would you give your younger self?

Erica: Perfect is boring. I learned that and it's taking me a while to unlearn that I don't have to be all put together all the time, even though that's my comfort zone. Yeah, perfect is boring. Someone once told me that the cracks are where the light comes in.

Analiza: And then where can we find you like LinkedIn or if you have social media,

Erica: I'm on Instagram. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Facebook, and I'm on Twitter, though. I will tell you some are more actively used than others. LinkedIn is Erica L. Manuel. Let's see Facebook. I think it's a fair cut. And then Twitter, Erica12.

Analiza: And do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts to share? Oh, no, I

Erica: Oh, no, I am just grateful for the time to chat with you and to see you and to talk about these things. It's kind of therapeutic to just lay it out there. So I'm honored to be on your show today.

Analiza: Thank you so much, Erica, this is amazing. You are amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much for carving out time today to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, please share with someone else. You can share the link and posts on Facebook and say check it out. Lastly, I want to thank you for being a listener and you can go to get a free self Care bonus called juice your joy at Analizawolf.com/free Bonus. Thank you so much