Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise Podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud, Filipina American, mom of two, and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the US Air Force. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. We'll be talking with successful CEOs and C suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys. If you're a woman or woman of color, who wants a seat at the table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I am so excited to be here with my longtime mentor, Vanessa Rodriguez. She's currently the CEO of New York City Outward Bound schools. And if we go way back, she actually started her career as a bilingual elementary school teacher in the Bronx. She has an amazing career before Outward Bound. She was the interim CEO and Chief Program Officer at Citizens of the World Charter Schools. And they have a national charter school network with schools in California, Missouri, and Ohio. Before that, she was the Chief Talent Officer at Newark Public Schools. And then before that, she was the CEO of district 79. And so in New York City, this is a district that serves disengaged over aged under credited students. So really tough, but important population to serve. And before that, she was the National Director of Recruitment and Admissions for New Leaders. You have such an amazing career. I'm very, very excited to have you, Vanessa, thank you so much for being here.

Vanessa: Thank you for having me. Gosh, it feels like 25 years and it goes fast.

Analiza: I mean, you've done this all Vanessa with raising your son. And it's quite amazing, because I've known you, I think when Devin was back in elementary or middle school, and so now he's 15. And so let's actually reflect because I'd love for people to get to you. Because how I've gotten to know you talk about your upbringing and your race, your identity, how has that set the path? Not that you had them had the path plan, but like, how did that influence your decisions?

Vanessa: That's a great question. So my family is from Puerto Rico. And my parents were both born and raised in Puerto Rico. And they came to the mainland when they were very young, in their early, late teens, early 20s. And they met here actually in New York, and got married and settled in Connecticut. And they chose to stay in the mainland and not raise a family in Puerto Rico, because they wanted a better education for us. And yet, in Hartford, you know, the education was not what they expected, better than Puerto Rico, but yet still not what they expected. And so I ended up attending public school, Catholic school, and then I got an opportunity to get a scholarship to go to a private school. And throughout all three of those experiences, I still lived in the same neighborhood, which was predominantly Puerto Rican, and Jamaican, and with a public school that was failing our community. And for me having the opportunity to go to a private school, which was, it felt like I had a foot in two worlds. And that I was really trying to understand why was it that not everybody had the opportunity to have the type of education I was happy having at this, like elite private school. And that automatically made me angry, frustrated, and I wanted to do something about it. And at first I thought, you know, going into law and trying to shift policy was the way to do it. And then I realized that maybe it was through teaching and being in the classroom, and being closer to young people, because I saw so many of my friends struggle. So that's what put me on the path to education.

Analiza: I mean, if you follow the path, Vanessa, and we talked about growing from teacher to leader, and then CEO, and then the number of turnarounds you've done, like that's, that's an incredibly hard and challenging career. And you stay really consistent with that dream. So hats off to that. I want to talk about myths, Vanessa, because there are the myths that we didn't realize until later and Gosh, darn if we had known right if we had known right where we would be today. And so can you talk about that, as you're in your career? What myths did you believe in? And then you realize, actually, that is quite false?

Vanessa: Yeah. There are a couple. I mean, I think one was that, especially as a Latina woman at work, I didn't always feel like I could be in the room. And what I mean by in the room is like, where big decisions were made, right? That that was a space for men, that that was a space for white men, and if it was going to be opened up that it was a space for white women that obvious Sleep was a myth for me. Because, you know, we, especially in the work I do serving predominantly communities of color, like we have to be at the table, right? Like, we have to be speaking on behalf of our communities, we have to be speaking on behalf of our own experiences in education and just in the world, and the relevance of our personal experience in the work that we do.

And so I think, you know, I was very fortunate to have some female mentors who pushed me, and also male mentors to who pushed me to say, like, you have the experience, you have a voice that is powerful, and you should be finding ways and we will support you in finding ways to get into the room and be a decision maker. But that was hard. It was very hard, a lot of rejection, a lot of moments of doubting myself, you know, we talk about imposter syndrome. Lord, did I have that for a long time thinking that I could not? Or shouldn't? Or like, it was like, Oh, I got lucky that I'm in the room. Like I hear a lot of people say that, especially women of color, say that. It's like, it's not luck. It's hard work. We work hard. Like, give yourself the credit.

Analiza: It's interesting. When I first met you, I remember that you had said, sometimes I get impostor syndrome. And I was like, oh, once you are such a senior leader, I look up to you, so many of us do. And you have this and you're like, yes. And I face it, and I shift and I take up space. And so I was like, what does that even mean? So let's actually, you know, I love to codify things. Right? Vanessa, if you were to create with all the years, right? You're like, oh, I doubted, you know, I said the thing? How would you actually kind of systematize that or give steps like, Okay, here's kind of how I approached it. Here's the advice that I got. Here's the ways in which you could get there a little bit faster?

Vanessa: Yeah, that's a great question. I think about this a lot when I reflect back, because even recently, like applying for the role I'm in now, I was like, should I be going for that like is that and then I was like, Whoa, back it up? Like you're doubting yourself again. And you no one is really talking to people, both in my personal life who know me really well, and support me. And so leaning in with people in my professional life who've been there along the journey, I think that's important. It's important to lean in on your community, and have them lift you up, because they see you as you are not as you may think you are. I think that's one.

I think, second is I actually, for me, it's about values, the work, I think I've sustained and stayed because I care deeply about the young people. And I know the cost and being a mom of a Puerto Rican brown boy in America, like, I know what the cost is of not doing this work for him, right, and the world we're building. And so I lean into that, like, if we're not doing it, if I have an opportunity to improve this work, I have an opportunity to voice something that needs to be better. If I have an opportunity to give into something that can produce more opportunity for young people, then I have a responsibility to do it. I need to lean into that. As scary as that may be, and what's the worst that can happen. So I failed. And I learned from it, right? Like, I picked myself back up and got through it, because I've failed before and done that. And I think there you know, at one point, I was like, gosh, if I fail, it represents my family, my community and you know, in the Latino community, that's a big thing. And I don't want to do that. And I would put this extra pressure on myself. And now it's like, just release a little bit of that and be me and say, Actually, my community can lift me up if I fail. Like we can do this together. And so I'm trying to lean into more of that than the fear that comes with impostor syndrome.

Analiza: Yeah. Here's so much there, Vanessa versus like a recognition of what even our thoughts are, to do a check. I'm doubting myself, Okay, let me put aside that limiting belief and actually take on an empowering belief, so the self awareness. And then the second is to have this beautiful community of which I'm so grateful I have you as part of my community, you have definitely lifted me up during some very hard times.

Vanessa: Thank you, you too. You've done for me too. So I appreciate you. It's amazing to like, I do remember that first conversation we had over coffee, and like this was part of your dream. And I love that you're now a model for others about how you can make it a reality and make it happen. When you dream it it can be true.

Analiza: And back to you Vanessa seriously. I received that and also just so admire you for this. Thank you. So community and then the third is the bigger mission. Right? It's actually not about me speaking up Vanessa, taking a stand here and having me my face out there. It's actually for bigger having Devin and other brown and black people of color. Kids see that there is a different path and then fourth, being able to lean into failure and know that actually what's going on happens, we're not gonna die. I mean, really, we're not unless we're climbing some crazy thing off the cliff like we're not. And to notice that it's actually in the failure that if we did fail, learn the most, right. So it all cycles back then to community. So I love that cycle. And to know, it actually is each step, taking each step and knowing that the worst that can happen is that your community is there to back you.

Vanessa: That's right.

Analiza: So Vanessa, you mentioned mentors and you obviously a mentor of mine, and I want to go to that because you are as busy with a schedule as a single mom, all the things leading the turnarounds, interim CEO, what's the update? Vanessa, you're like, Oh, now the CEO. Talk to me about mentorship. First, let's go to your own mentors. You had mentioned having mentors who are also men, right? We're not, you don't have to always be women of color, like I got lucky with you. But talk about how that happened.

Do you seek them out? Do they seek you out? Like how in general, would you say no, there's no secret formula. But have you seen that happen for you in your career?

Vanessa: Yeah, I love that question. It's been more organic, truthfully, than like deliberate or intentional. I think my first mentor, male mentor, was a black man in college. And he was a teacher. He's the one that introduced me to Teach for America, because he was a charter year corps member. And it was by me accessing an opportunity for a work study job. And he happened to be part of that, like leading part of that work. And we just got to talking and he was like, you have this passion for justice. And I was like, yes, and I'm gonna go be a lawyer. And he's like, No, you're a teacher. That was like, You're crazy. But the more we talked about it, and I shared with him my own personal school experience, he convinced me that that was a place where I could have real impact and real change in the lives of young people. And that he put me on the path to teaching and to be in education, because I really, before that, wasn't fond of it.

But it was more like I think I connected with people, I think this goes across all the mentors I've had, like there is a values alignment, there is an opportunity to connect on something deeper than like, what's on the surface, right. And for me, that is how I lean in, I do consider myself a values leader, someone who really cares deeply about having a passion for something, particularly around creating space and opportunity and access for young people. And for me, like there's an element of justice around that equity, and real love for the work you do. Right?

Like you have to love what you're doing to like, want to get through the most challenging moments and to persist and persevere. And so I find that like the people I've connected with across and they're, you know, they've been white men, black men, white women, women of color, who I know, admire and adore. And the through line is that their values align, about wanting to make a difference and wanting to have impact, and that the work we do should be more than just checking a box or getting a paycheck. And so I think that has been what has really connected me to the people that are in my circle,

Analiza: I hear when you share, Vanessa, that there's a trust in the universe, that the people who will come your way will help steer angels or whoever you call them to have someone take you from the lawyer path. And I think about you, of course, been awesome as a lawyer or whatever you chose to do. But I don't know, you know, the education movement would have missed out. I think that that's interesting, both this organic way of building relationships, and also making sure the values are there. Because if it's not there, you can be colleagues, and it doesn't have to go deeper, and especially get advice about hard things.

And so then so that actually leads me to this other question I have, because often I've come to you for advice on hard things, which include difficult conversations, and I feel like of all the people that I know and I know lots of leaders, you're quite direct and and it's, it's every time I talk to you, I realized like how much work I need to be doing on just saying the thing, right, just let's call it and call the bluff.

And as an Asian American, I'm tip toeing. Are we okay, is everything okay? And then finally, I'm like, What did I even say? Like? I think I said the opposite. I was honestly Vanessa. I called someone to say that they didn't get the job, didn't get the fellowship. And I walked away with like, I think I told him that he might get I honestly was like, What the hell happened? It was so terrible.

No, I didn't have you yet as my mentor, but I actually would love Vanessa, if you could break it down because I feel like you have some sort of structure or some way of delivery. And I don't know if you were like that to begin with back in the day, but can you just walk us through first talk about the structure and then we could talk about how you got there.

Vanessa: Yeah, so the structure for me is that if you first care for other people's well being, like that's at the beginning of it, right? Like, if you care for others, while being just that simple, then they deserve honesty, right? And then I think sometimes when we give difficult information or challenging information to others, we want to, like, make it as you know, easy and as nice as possible and still try to deliver the message. And when the truth is that you just got to deliver the message. And then you deal with what comes with it.

I learned that the hard way, because I used to do the sandwich approach, right? Early on in my career, the first time I led. I was, I think, Gosh, I think my first time leading a team when I was 24. And I had most of my staff who were actually older than me. And so I would do that. And they're like, it would go in circles. And finally, someone said to me, it was a Latino man. And he was like, just say it. It was like, Whoa, and he was like, This is painful. Let me tell you why.

And I learned that was like, no, he's right. Like, what do I want? I want to hear it. Right. So it's like, you want people's well being to be part of the process? I think that's what you were feeling in your example. And so I think people really appreciate hearing what the answer is. And then you talk about, like, everything that comes with that answer, right? And because then they know, and you're not like, walking them through this maze to get to the answer. And so I've really gotten to a space where it's like, okay, I care about you, as a human being, I want this to be really clear. So I give the direct impact. If it's like, sorry, this is not the right match for you. This job isn't the opportunity for you. This fellowship isn't really what is best for you.

Now, let me talk about why. And let's hear how you're feeling and how you're responding. You support them, and then you move forward. And people really appreciate that. They appreciate the directness, the candor, and the honesty, being really direct. They know where they stand with you. And I think because people have known where they stand with me, because I am really direct and clear. with them. They're that much more likely to be direct and honest with me. Right. And so that allows for growth, and allows for me to to think about the work I'm doing with others and how I can continue to improve it.

Analiza: So I actually want to put this into play because you gave me feedback once when I came to you, I need help. Can we talk in the next 24 hours and we're like, you made it happen in the next like hour. And I said, here's the situation, you listened to it, and you're like, alright, well, you already spilled the milk, or you said it like in a little more gruff way. But you said you're like, it's already done. Like you already, you shouldn't have done this, but it's already done. So next time, we're going to do that differently.

But for now, let's figure out how to fix it. And it was so direct. I mean, there was no like, Well, I see how you're trying or, you know, I'm glad you came to me or like, let me convert you like it was just like, Yep, that was not the right thing to do. You should have done this. But we are where we are. So let's figure it out. And I was like, Okay, I mean, that was a perfect example of that. I mean, I trust whatever you tell me but it's exactly this delivery. So actually want to talk about it, Vanessa because yeah, I wish I had gotten this right when I was like 20 to about to lead a bunch of people so thank you.

Right and yeah, I thank God for that Latino man right? Because like you're just making it painful to say the thing. Talk about a time Vanessa, like the hardest of hard of conversations, because actually I want to make it I gave this like, well, you my friend, you can tell me whatever. But talk about a really hard conversation. Right? And you gave us an example of like, letting someone go. But like, think about the one of the toughest conversations because I actually want to put it into play. This person was tough. And I'm about to go really direct. And I mean, did it always go perfectly? Could you give us an example?

Vanessa: Yeah, I think one of the toughest examples or moments in my career was definitely when I was working at Newark Public Schools. And I had to lay off and transition a number of folks who cared deeply about their young people and the work they were doing, but we're not a match to the job that they were holding. And, you know, I am always at the forefront. You know, we're in the work for young people, not to have a job. And so it allows me to think about the approach to making tough decisions in a way that's really focused on why we exist in the work and why we exist and as an organization, as a district, whatever it may be, but I had this one person who had been at the district for a long time, and was not values aligned in some ways and also was not really delivering in their role. And, and they were pretty senior, and they had, you know, lots of folks in the community that supported them. And so it was not the easiest conversation. It was pretty adversarial, like she did not agree with anything I said. I mean, from day one, I was like, someone she saw as opposition. And so it just took longer. And it was a much I had to live through a lot more of the like, having to see us individual every day, knowing that we were not in agreement and knowing that she knew I was trying to exit her. And she and I were trying to figure out the best way to do it so that the community could still hold. And yet we could still push the work forward. But she would do things in the office behind my back and like to create a really, really tough environment. And that was really hard. And, you know, I'd been really direct about my intention so that she was clear. And yet, like there was a couldn't just in District, you know, there's unions, there's rules, there's like processes you have to go through before you can exit someone. It's not like other nonprofits where it's at will employment. So it took a lot longer. And that was really hard on me. But it was also hard on the team because it created this tension that we were consistently living with. And that was eventually the individual resigned and left, which was great for the work we were trying to push forward. But if I can go back in time, I honestly think I might have stepped back a little bit more and devised a plan that would get some of the stuff I had to do on the back end done first and then been really blunt.

Analiza: I say more because this is tactical and important. Letting go of people is hard, especially when they're toxic. So what was the back end work that you wish you had done?

Vanessa: It's the political stuff, right? Like, it's the external folks who maybe aren't a part of either the organization or the district, whatever it may be, that you're working in, who have influence on what you do, right, or have power in making, you know, things happen, or creating support, whether it's electeds, or community leaders, other folks who maybe aren't a part of your organization, but have huge influence on what happens in your organization, funders, you know, I would have spent a little more time on that first and getting support and telling, laying out the narrative and what was happening, and the why this person was no longer the right fit. Because I found myself having to do it on the back end, and I lost a little control of the narrative. When that happened. Then it became like, well, she said this, and you said this and that, right. And so it's like, you want to get ahead of that, you want to be able to say, hey, here's what's happening. And it may lead to some of these decisions, giving you the heads up, here's some evidence for some data, right? Like, here's what's happening that's not in alignment with where we want to go as an organization, or the impact we want to have on young people, right. And so laying that story out ahead and then going to the individual and saying, you know, for all these reasons, and you know, you have now the support of these other individuals that will back you up. So when that person goes to complain, they're like, Yeah, but what about this, because I have this information, I have this, and they're like your allies in this. And that was when I learned that lesson. And so now I am much more thoughtful of laying that groundwork internally and externally before taking action and being direct with the individual.

Analiza: It's such a balancing act, right, Vanessa, because it's very private information you could share. They could be best friends, and all of a sudden, they're like, I'm about to bring a lawyer before you even deliver. Yeah, but I hear you aligning as much as you can the ducks in a row so that when you do deliver the message, you're as prepared as possible. But yet, there's so much risk.

Vanessa: So I hear that and it's yeah, a natural breaking trust without breaking like HR rules, right? What are you sharing, you're sharing, like, here's that, like, you're not saying this person did this, this person did that. It's more like, here's where we are. And here's where what's not working, which may lead to a layoff, which may lead to exiting some individuals at this level. Right. And so there is a balancing act, right? it's also important that you're building community support for the work you're doing.

Analiza: Exactly. Especially when you're talking about highly charged political environments, like the one in New York, Newark. There was a lot to talk about a turnaround. So let's talk about your personal life because one of the things I admired about you and still do is just your mom, you prioritize being a mom, and you've made some big shifts since when I first met you and you're like, I am doing like nine jobs. I'm also a mom, and I'm doing my job. abs, and I feel like today Vanessa is different. So just can walk us through what made me just give us a glimpse of what life was like before and then what happened to make you change?

Vanessa: Yeah, I, as you can tell, I care very deeply about the work I do, very passionate about creating access and opportunity for young people. And, you know, I thought at first like, I gotta go, I gotta continue going even harder, because now I have my son, and I want him to see and experience what it means to advocate and to create change in a positive way. And I had Devin, when I transitioned from New Leaders to District 79, and I was at District 79 for almost seven years. So it was like, hard, go, go go work. And I wasn't present for him.

You know, I built a community to support me and I had a family that supported me, to which I was really fortunate. But it was hard. And I was giving a lot more time to the work than I was at home. And I realized that particularly when I was in Newark, my days, like I was there, right? At times, I was leaving at 5am and getting home at 10pm. So it's like he's like I barely like it's tried to make it up on the weekends. And it's just like, What am I doing?' And I finally just, like, took a real step back. And, like, after work, and really reflected on what was happening to me, not the work, not my son at family, but like, I was feeling a sense of like, not lost, but like emptiness of not being connected in the same way I want it to be. And not that I was like, I wasn't good at momming when I was there 100%. And I did a lot but I was running myself ragged trying to like go go go all the time, both as a mom and work. And so I just made a deliberate decision that I need to pivot that and so my next role after that had to help me create balance. And I think I found that, that of the Citizens of the World because I think that's part of the culture there. I think Kriste Dragon who founded it, like really built that into the fabric of the organization. And so I felt like I was finding that balance in different ways. And now like Devin's 15, and in a few years, he may be going to college, that's the goal, and he won't be home.

And so for me right now, it's like, I need to make sure that like, I'm making the choices to be present and things that are important to him, and important to me, like not going to a conference because I'm going to go to his basketball tournament, and I'm gonna be super present there or like, not staying late at work, because I am going to take him to an event or be at a school, you know, concert, whatever it may be. And so I'm just really drawing that line and being much more deliberate about that. And I've started to do that. I think also talking to others about it helps, right like other moms, and leaning in.

I just feel like as parents, we never feel like we're doing a good job. We feel like that's part of the role is to feel like, Oh, I'm never great. It's never great. And so once you accept that, it's so so easy to say okay, but here's the things I have control over where it can be really intentional, to be present and to be supportive and to be and, you know, connect in connection with my family, my my son, and Devon, I have a really good relationship like he is I he wasn't something that like he wasn't planned, and he was the best gift that came into my life. Like I was really surprised when I found out I was pregnant. And I also knew like, Oh, like this is the time like this. He is what is supposed to happen in my life right now. And it's been the most beautiful relationship in my life. I'm super super grateful for him.

Analiza: He's so lucky to have you Vanessa

Vanessa: I am lucky to have him.

Analiza: So Vanessa it's this theme, right of like fortuitous moments, both that mentor and then the feedback from the Latino man and then this beautiful surprise gift Tada I'm gonna get once I actually get to this deeper because to make the change and then to go work at an organization that embraces more integration of life, I'll use that and sort of balance as well as having a community that comes up as a theme again, Vanessa, for you community of support, and then I want to go to this idea of rules because you know, I like systems and so I feel like you probably have like, If This Then That, that helps to just take away this guilt. What do I do decision tree analysis paralysis, I feel like you probably have some rules. Would you mind if you are right now, but What rules do you generally follow to help you make the call?

Vanessa: Yeah, like if I miss this work? Is it going to impact our team or organization achieving a goal and if it's going to put us off track, which then is going to actually create more work for me, then I probably have to do it. Right. But if it's not, and it conflicts with something that's really important, or something that like, that's really important for Devin, right? Like he's saying, This is important for me, or I want you to be there, or it'd be great to have you there. Or maybe you don't want to be there, you don't have to be there, but I can tell that he wants it, then I'm prioritizing it. Or if I really want it, like, I just want to have a night where I'm watching him and his team play basketball, you know, like, and that's going to bring me joy, then I'm going to prioritize it. And there are times where I'll leave the office at three to make a four o'clock game, and know that I'm not going to work the rest of the night. But then the next day, I'll make it up, right, like so that there's no so like, you know, time is something I think about a lot.

So I, at the beginning of every month, plan out the entire month, right? Like he and I sit down, we look at every week, we have an old school big calendar in the kitchen. And together, we review it. And we say okay, here are the trade offs. And now he's old enough where we could do it together. So I can say I have this trip, you have this? What do you think about going on this trip? Or what if I say, you know, like, and we have that conversation. And so he's now a part of it right? In the beginning, he wasn't young, and it was hard to but now I can include him in the decision making. And so it's very much like doing it as a family. I can make these choices of when I will travel when I don't like going to a conference in December. And we talked about it, like, I'll be gone for two and a half days. And he's like, that's totally fine. I'm gonna say this, you know, he'll stay with his grandmother, and his dad, and it'll be fine. But it also makes me feel more at ease and calm. Because he's been a part of the decision making process, we've reviewed how we're going to spend time where they're going to be moments where we're having family time, throughout the month, and I can balance that with my work choices.

Analiza: I'm just going to narrate this. So first, if it doesn't impact the bottom line goals there's no need. Yeah, that pressure on yourself? Yeah, great. Number two, do I want to go? Does he want me to be there? Let's figure out that if I do, let's make it work. If he does, let's make it work. And the third thing is, let's work together Devin and me trying to figure out how we can balance both work and my and of course, my love and time with him. So I just love this partnership. And of course codified it because you do these things. And so with us, Vanessa, if you're up for it, I'd love to do a lightning round question.

Vanessa: Yes, I love lightning round. Let's do it.

Analiza: All right. Chocolate or vanilla.

Vanessa: Chocolate.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout ?

Vanessa: Cooking.

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Vanessa: Climb a mountain.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Vanessa: No.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of one to 1010 being Maria Carey?

Vanessa: I'll be honest, five.

Analiza: What's a recent book you read?

Vanessa: The Sum of Us by Heather McGee

Analiza: What's your favorite way to practice self care?

Vanessa: Walking

Analiza: What's good professional development you've done?

Vanessa: Pahara

Analiza: What's your definition of a Boss Mama?

Vanessa: Kick Ass

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Vanessa: Trust yourself

Analiza: And where can we find you like LinkedIn? Or if you have any social media profiles?

Vanessa: I have a LinkedIn profile.

Analiza: Great. And then any parting thoughts or recommendations to share?

Vanessa: Yeah, just trust yourself. I think like I often there's moments where we let fear creep in. And I think specifically as a woman and a woman of color, that would be my advice to my younger self. And I just put that back out in the world. And I just have so much gratitude for you Analiza, like this work, putting women's voices out there and Boss Mamas. That was your dream, and it's amazing to see it come true.

Analiza: Thanks, Vanessa. All right. Really appreciate you Vanessa, for all the things not just this podcast, but being a mentor and friend and just leader and inspiration to so many of us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Vanessa: Thank you. Have a great day.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time today to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, please share with someone else you can share the link and posts on Facebook and say check it out. Lastly, I want to thank you for being a listener and you can go to get a free self care bonus called juice your joy at analizawolf.com/freebonus. Thank you so much.