Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise Podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipina American, mom of two, and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the US Air Force. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. We'll be talking with successful CEOs and C suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys. If you're a woman or woman of color, who wants a seat at the table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I am so excited to be here today with Rhea Wong, a friend of mine for many years, she is both a leader in nonprofit and an author. Actually the triple whammy is that she's a comedian. She recently wrote the book, Get That Money, Honey, and it's all about how to help nonprofits raise money. She's a prior CEO of her own nonprofit. She's raised millions of dollars institutionally with events but her main, Get That Money, Honey is about individual donors. How can we do that with private philanthropy, and she's been so successful in doing that herself and with nonprofits, that she's become a leader in the nonprofit community here in New York. She's also frequently asked to comment in the media. She was recognized with the smart CEO Brava Award in 2015. And the New York Nonprofit Media 40 under 40 in 2017. And what makes her so fun, in addition to all that is that she is a stand up comedian. Hilarious.

Rhea: I had a private showing, well, not private, but with friends.

Analiza: And she's super, super funny. So check her out - all the ways. Welcome. Welcome Rhea. I'm so excited you're here.

Rhea: Analiza, thank you so much for having me.

Analiza: So Rhea, I want to know if this was always the dream, like did you have in your head that you would be an author, that you would be a comedian, that you would be a CEO, that after that, you would have your own consulting company? What was that arc, especially coming back from you and I are both Asian American, but give me the highlight of how young Rhea Wong has now found herself in these footsteps that you carry?

Rhea: I don't think any Asian American kid is like, I'm gonna be a consultant. Right? Like, to this day, my parents don't actually know what I do. So I helped her a lot. I was a 26 year old ED in New York. My first day on the job. I did two Google searches. One was what does an ED do? Google Search two was, How do you fundraise? I mean, so clueless right? So 12 and a half years later, you know, I and my team had built up the organization to serving over 500 kids a year in New York, in the Bronx, Manhattan in Brooklyn at three different sites, and I was raising 3 million a year in private philanthropy. I mean, truthfully speaking, I didn't know that I was destined to run my own company.

I had actually, after leaving my organization at the end of 2017, joined a tech firm for about two and a half months, and then realized that that was not for me, not my jam. So I left and I don't know, I kind of I was a little bit of drift because like you, I'm sure, I had been a very good Asian, right, like I did all the things I, like, got all the A's went to the right schools, got a job after college. And it was really the first time in my life that I didn't have a next step of like, oh, this is what you do as a grown up. And in fact, leaving that job was a big crisis moment for me, because I had so identified myself with what I do, and going to work, that was my identity. And so when I didn't have that it really caused a bit of a mini crisis. And then you know, breakdown breakthrough was like, Wait, but that means I could do anything. And so I kind of became an accidental consultant, because I had lots of ED friends. And they found out I had some free time. So like one project went to the next project or the next project. And lo and behold, I was like, Well, I guess it's what I'm doing now.

And then mid pandemic is really when I transitioned to focus more on fundraising, because in the beginning, I was taking on lots of different projects, like talent management, project strategy projects, but I decided, you know, the riches or the niches. And so what I really wanted to do was to focus on the number one problem all nonprofits have, which is fundraising. And I think you and I can talk about this, too, in this sector. We have people who are accidental fundraisers, I mean, we hire people who are tested with some of the most important work in the world, and provide them with no training in the job that they're supposed to do, which is just craziness. So what I do now is I provide that training, especially around major gift fundraising.

And did I know that this is where I would end up? No, not at all. Did I know that I had a book in me. I did think I had a book in me. I thought it was the great American novel. Turns out it was a fundraising book. And yes, of course the stand up comedy goes, it's always been a lifelong dream. But I will tell you there is nothing more soul crushing than bombing on stage throughout downtown Brooklyn and downtown Manhattan. I bombed everywhere. And really, I joke, but it's kind of a joke. My goal is to be the Asian Oprah.

Analiza: You told me Asian Oprah Rhea and I saw that in you when I first met you, I still see it. And you're you don't even have to say Asian Oprah, you're just you. So hurray for that trajectory, your humility. And I want to talk about this trajectory, because there's one thing that captured when I thought about the person who embodied this, I thought about you, and this idea of putting yourself out there, because for all the scary things that I've done, I mean, I've bungee jumped, and I've put myself in front of, you know, 1000s of people talking about a speech, right? Like, for all those things, I actually think this, it would be even scarier, to stand up in front of people and share these jokes. And not people not laugh like it would bomb like, and just that sounds like a bad dream. Have you always been the kind of person who's just yeah, since I was, you know, five years old. Rhea would tell these jokes run around. People would laugh or not laugh and you're just fine with it? Or did you have to develop this?

Rhea: So I was doing an open mic here in San Francisco, where I live and my whole family's here. So I was doing this open mic in this little dive bar. And literally, my brothers came, my parents came my best friend or their parents are there. Am I born again, Christian God was there and my set, you've heard it, it's not super clean. And then sitting there like, Oh, my God, I am telling like, sex jokes in front of my parents. This is terrible, like, so speaking of the nightmare, the nightmare was complete. I was like, I just need to be naked and have a calculus test.

And like, that's it, the Trinity is here. But I always say there's nothing better than stand up comedy to get you ready to do anything. Because like, if you can bomb a set in front of your parents, and not die, you're like, I'm bulletproof. I could do anything. So to answer your question about like, Where does this come from? You know, to be honest, I don't really know. I've always been pretty self assured, I think you've testament to the way that my parents raised me, but I think I busted out of the womb ready, like I am here, people, which is not to say that I don't get self conscious, or I don't care about what people think about me or I don't get insecure, of course, I'm a human being. So I think if anything, my superhero power is I have a blessedly short memory. Like, I don't dwell on things. I'm a bit of a goldfish, you know, for better for worse. And so I think the thing that holds people back a lot is both anticipating, like all of the ways it's gonna go wrong. So I definitely have low level anxiety, like all New Yorkers, I think the thing that has really helped me is like, I can shake it off pretty quickly and turn the page. And it's that one skill, maybe that has been really the most helpful in my entrepreneurial journey.

Analiza: Okay, Rhea, you can teach many things, but the idea of shaking it off that you can fall on your face, and goldfish moment, boom, let's keep going. In my story. I mean, tell me if you were to teach me that skill. Like, I really want to learn that maybe one day I can be ballsy enough to get on stage and tell sex jokes from my parents, for someone who's just really does want to build the skill? How would you say, here's how I do it?

Rhea: Alright, say something happens that you think is embarrassing, or, you know, whatever. The thing that I think really gets a lot of people is that you get stuck in your head narrative about it. So like you make it mean something you're like, Oh, I'll give you an example. So I send an email by accident to my whole list, which is like, actually wrote an email about having, like, accidentally sent this email, the minute it sent, and I realized that I had sent the wrong thing that was like, this meant I hit the wrong button, whatever, whatever. The narrative, just what am I, oh, my god, people are gonna unsubscribe, they're gonna think I'm bad at email, they think I'm a moron. But like it just spiraled out of control. And the trick of it for me was just to take a breath, and I do meditate. I meditate every morning. So I think that meditation provides just a little bit of space between the narrative that your little like brain is spinning out in the prefrontal cortex. And it's like, okay, take a breath. And I think just the ability to take a breath back. Okay, stop, like, How realistic is this narrative that you're telling yourself? Like, is it true that people might be a little annoyed that they got a double email from you, Sure. Is it true that some people might unsubscribe? Sure. Is it true that everyone's gonna think you're a moron and like, hate you and never want to talk to you? And probably not? And if they do, they probably weren't your friends in the first place. Right? So I think part of it is just letting your prefrontal cortex calm your amygdala down a little bit. And then I got this tip from Dr. Eugene Choi, which is so helpful. So our brains are either operating in survival mode or executive mode. There's one of two and it's all the time most of us spend 70% of our time in survival mode, right? So that's why we get like anxious, aggressive, you know, judgy all of the bad things because we're interpreting things as threats.

And his hack, which is so great is you literally think to yourself, Okay, I feel anxious or I feel stressed or I feel frustrated or like whatever label that feeling is for you. And the very act of having to think about what that feeling is moves the energy to your prefrontal cortex and calms everything down. And then the other thing that I would say is a shout out to Jen Chow Fontaine. I worked with her, but she's a somatic coach. So it's like, feel the feelings in your body, right. So when I get anxious, I can feel like my heart starts racing. I can, like, start breathing really shallowly, I can sort of feel myself getting a little clammy, and just the consciousness of the physical feeling is like, okay, like taking a breath, slow it down. So those are a couple of things, which is not to say, I still don't get anxious, like, you know, the default especially I think, being Asian, there's such a such pressure to appear a certain way or be perfectionistic, that it's really hard to override the code on that. But I'm trying,

Analiza: I love it, you actually codified it really well, Rhea. So first is when we make mistakes, as all humans do. Take a pause, take a second is named the feeling, anxiety, fear, whatever it is. And third is check. Check your assumptions. Is it really true that people will think I'm the most horrible person on planet earth blah blah blah? Hmmm maybe not. So I love that because it all slows down and stops the pattern. That's so new, and painful, right? We're just like, start spiraling and spiraling. And all of a sudden, it's like six months later. So, so, so powerful.

Rhea: Well, and the other thing too, is when you're naming the feeling, it's important to say I feel versus I am. So instead of saying I am stressed, be like I feel stressed, because feelings are temporary feelings passed, but I am is an identity statement. So I think just being conscious to have like, the words that we use for ourselves, because it's so easy for us to beat up on ourselves, and so easy to go down to that like, Oh, God, you're a moron. Like, why did you do that? Why did you say, well, it's like, Okay, how about I just start with being nicer to myself, which is like really the hardest thing, right? Because I can be super nice to everybody else. But when it comes to myself, that's when I really get very abusive.

Analiza: That's actually really powerful. You had said earlier, hurt people hurt people. And we wonder where I wonder where that comes from. And it's like, the research shows that the more I hurt me, I actually hurt you. So pain, the pain? So can we actually love ourselves? I know that sounds like both. So we would truly like how can I show self compassion and comfort ourselves in the way that we comfort others? I mean, you're such a good friend to others, like how can we do that to us? And so yeah.

Rhea: Yeah, it's often someone said this to me, I know, it's kind of cliche, but someone wants it, like, would you let anybody talk to your best friend the way that you talk to yourself? And I was like, no way I'd fight someone if they talked to my best friend that way. And I was like, Okay, but why do I let myself talk to myself like that? And I was like, yeah. And actually, one last fun thing about that. So I have a dear friend who is French, and he, you know, his name is Alex. And he, like, made some mistake, like you went to the wrong tollbooth or something. And he was being harangued in French, and he responded, oh, my god, what is your name? I've never met someone like you who's never made a mistake before. That's amazing. Can I get your autograph? I always think about that. It's just like a funny thing of like, oh my God, I've never met anybody who's never made a mistake. That's incredible.

Analiza: I love the humor. Can we be lighter? Right? In French?

Rhea: Oh, my God, I've never met anybody who was never making a mistake.

Analiza: So I want to extend this further. Yeah. Because the idea of making mistakes and putting yourself out there. And having a brand when I think about you, I'm like, she really goes out there with vulnerable stories, willing to say things that are risky, right? Parents listen, people are listening, but you do it. It feels to me like 110%. And with it, you're both celebrating the fact that you are a leader with this expertise in fundraising and have been an ED and also you're providing humility.

So I'm curious, because often, we're both Asian American. Oh, you think you're something like humility, right? Like, humility is so prized? And yes, we want to have conviction but in a humble, quiet way, in a quiet, you know, when we hide and so I'm curious for you. Did you find that true view or were your parents like, yeah, go out there, say your thing. Be loud, like, be proud, or did you have these sort of Asian American stereotypes that were put on you and talk about that journey? Because how did you develop into this, you know, Asian Oprah, but really real long version of you now?

Rhea: Part of it is that my parents are second generation. So I don't know what generation you are. So I'm very Americanized. My parents also grew up in the Bay Area during the 60s and 70s. So I think, you know, they were Americanized enough to always, you know, really support my voice support me going out there. Like I remember, in sixth grade, I decided to run for the sixth grade president and my mom was there helping me with my campaign posters, right. So like, I think they've always really been supportive. Now, that being said, it hasn't always been comfortable for them. There are definitely times when my mom is still like, people say that, really? Because I just did. Yeah, so I think it's definitely testament to my parents, part of it is probably just, you know, the personality that I had, and it was born with. And part of it is I'm really bad at faking, like, I just, I can't fake it.

And so the way that I approach the stuff that I do, the brand is not from a place of like, I'm so great look at me, but rather like, Hey, I figured out some stuff. And if it's helpful to you, cool, and if it's not, that's cool, too, because I think I'm a recovering people pleaser. And I think maybe that's like my Achilles heel, which is, like, I want everyone to like me, but the truth is, like, not everyone's gonna like me, not everyone's gonna like everybody, and I'm just being okay with like, there are some people who are gonna think I'm obnoxious and are not gonna want to engage with me, that's fine. There are lots of people in the world. But there are other people who are gonna be really into my message into being in my community into my weekly emails, and those are my people. So I don't want to over index on the haters.

Analiza: It sounds like with both super supportive parents, and having your sense of I have something that I hope will be helpful to people, that those combined plus, you know, what, if you're not interested, that's okay. You're not my people. Anyway, all of those combined help you to just get out there and not be so self conscious. Am I getting that right?

Rhea: Self consciousness has never really been one of my many flaws, and being self conscious is probably enough, probably to my detriment. It's like, I won't do that, like last check before leaving the house. Like I could have spinach hanging on my teeth. I don't really know. But yeah, I think it's some combination of that. And also, just, I mean, I feel very lucky, I have such a lovely community, like people, like you were really supportive and really loving and really validating. And, you know, to me, my number one thing is I want to be helpful to people. So it's actually, it's more hurtful to me, for someone to say that I was not helpful versus like, they didn't like my personality, and like, whatever. I don't care if you don't like my personality, but I really have prided myself on like being helpful to people, adding value to people.

Analiza 17:30 Analiza: That's beautiful, because it also works with our own orientation that if we're of service, and that's the point, then the rest doesn't matter. Like people can not like us, and it's okay. Can we actually go to Rhea, this people pleaser piece because it is as a recovering one, I noticed that you said recovering. How did you feel like and I'm not to say that you're cured. But how have you made steps? What would you say have been key mindset changes or actions that you've taken or work you've done, but help you to be a better or just like, give the middle finger to all the things right?

Rhea: I don't know that I'm fully there yet. But I think vegetarian certainly helps. Therapy certainly helps. I mean, I think that people pleasing comes from a place of believing that love is scarce or love is conditional. And then I guess I just don't really believe that anymore. I think part of it too, is seeing mentors in my own life, when I think about the people I most admire, they have very strong personalities, right? They're not kind of in the middle because I think people pleasing is like you're trying to be milquetoast and you're trying to please everybody. And you know, you don't want to upset anybody, but like strong people, strong flavors, strong, you know, points of view are the people I really admired. So I've looked at those people and just really thought about like, do I want to be milquetoast? Or do I want to be Oprah, right? Do I want to be for some people and not for some people? Or do I want to be like, kind of beige, I don't want to be beige. In fact, I don't even know how to be beige. And then I think the other piece too, honestly, it's just getting older and realizing that like, doesn't really matter what people think about you. Like, I think kind of growing into my own skin. I don't know if you find that to be true, too, for yourself.

Analiza: I mean, you're not beige. Yeah, I'm getting to see you on video with like, the props of color, you always have the coolest glasses and bright red lipstick. So you're definitely not afraid to start there. And the second part is, it's so interesting to be older. And I think it's actually something for me personally, I'm celebrating that because the more I release all the other stuff, like it doesn't matter if you don't like me, I'm old anyway. And I don't have a lot of time to be catering to all the people like I just need a couple of people in my corner and I have them and it's okay. So yeah, it was something to be sure. older and wiser I think on the other side of it.

Rhea: I just think about myself in my 20s and even my 30s. Really, I was so I mean yeah, I was like preoccupied with people thought about me particularly around being a young ED I felt like I really had to prove myself like I was always like, Oh, they're gonna think I'm incompetent, they're gonna think I'm a flaky and you know, I had all these narratives. And then once I started getting successes under my belt and started to really build a reputation in the field, there was less pressure on myself that I put on myself, no one was running and saw me it was all me pressuring myself about worrying about what other people said, or thought about me. And realizing too, that ultimately, I have no control over what people think about me, like, love me or hate me. Like, that's not something that I have any direct control that's on you. And so I just Yeah, I kind of be me.

Analiza: So tell me Rhea, when you think about just overall life, young Rhea, we believe these things. And then now looking back at our wise ages, there were myths, they were absolutely not true. And you one or two really come to mind as that was not true. But Gosh, darn, I really wish that I hadn't believed it.

Rhea: So many, the biggest one is, and I think this might be an Asian thing, I'd be curious about your thoughts on it. But the biggest one is that my value is derived from what I do, right? Like how much I can work, how much I can grind, how much output I put out there. And that is directly proportional to my value as a human, which led to overwork and workaholism and all the rest of it, right. And I, as you know, I have a network called Asian Boss Ladies.

And this seems like a similar theme of like, I have no value unless I can work unless I produce and coming around to the fact that I have value no matter what I do. This has been a revelation, I would say. And then I think the other piece is, I mean, that's sort of a lifelong thing.

But it's better to ask forgiveness than permission, right? Because I think especially you and I now being entrepreneurs, we have this idea of like, Am I allowed to do that? Like, like, Who do I ask, Is that allowed? Because our whole lives have been so regimented, right? It's like you go to school, then you get a job, and you get married, and you have kids, and, and then all of a sudden, when you're in this world of entrepreneurship, it's like, oh, there are no rules, like you get to do whatever you want. And I think the freedom is both exhilarating, but it can also be really debilitating to, like, I don't know how to make my own rules. Do you find that to be true for yourself?

Analiza: Oh, for sure. I mean, the rules of the road, it was nice, because there's a syllabus, you could do the homework, you could do the tests, follow the activities, apply for the colleges and do the work. Even in the work world, there's a job description, and there's processes to follow, and you're still good, you're checking boxes, and now that we're on this other side of entrepreneurship, where really, you can do anything, and there is no one managing you or your time. It's so freeing, and at the same time, I still have these Who should I ask to make sure I'm okay that I'm doing the right thing. And when really there's no ask, so I love it. I don't know for you.

Rhea: I was gonna say like I cannot be put back in the cage like I am reborn now, but the other just as we were talking, it occurred to me it's like, there is no cosmic report card, right? And I think we're so conditioned to think like, how do we get an A like, how do we weighed in at life? Like, there's no report card? Like God is not a principal? This is not a competition. Welcome to life. Oh, yeah. Like Earth school, right? You're like, oh, there's no scoreboard.

Analiza: Yes. And actually, to go right, you and I were talking about? We're here like we've arrived. Yeah. Life is now like, This is it? And yeah, was a song and you could break down to sit. But it really is like it is it now. And if we don't enjoy it, like, what are you striving to like death? It does feel what's not right. Let's be here and live life and make the mistakes and laugh and pick each other up and keep going. Because it's so I love the thing that doesn't kid but I'm glad we're talking about it.

Rhea: Well, I wonder too. And again, I attribute everything to Asianness. But maybe it's also an American thing is like we're always looking for the next thing, but not enjoying it now. Right? Like when you're in school, you're looking forward to the next grade. And then you're looking forward to college and then you're looking forward to your next job. And then eventually you're looking forward to retirement. It's like, but also, can you enjoy what's happening right now? Because by the time you're retired, you might be told to really enjoy it. Like Carpe Diem people.

Analiza: Carpe Diem. With that, let's do a lightning round. Are you ready?

Rhea: Yeah.

Analiza: Okay.

Rhea: Give it to me.

Analiza: Chocolate or vanilla?

Rhea: Chocolate. You knew that.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Rhea: My husband cooking,

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Rhea: Jump from a plane? I don't like climbing.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Rhea: Not on purpose. But I might have done it like it wasn't a conscious fashion choice.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills scale of one to 10-10 being MaRheah Carry?

Rhea: Does emotion count because I'm high on the emotion level low on the skill level. High passion low skill.

Analiza: What's a recent book you read?

Rhea: Oh my gosh. So good. I'm reading that The Myth of Normal by Gabor Ma Tei. And I had read, which I thought was so good, What My Bones Know by Stephanie foo about complex PTSD, particularly for all my Asian ladies out there. It's a great read.

Analiza: What's a really good professional development you've done?

Rhea: Jennifer McRae's class at Harvard, I think really was a game changer, a life changer for me.

Analiza: What was the class?

Rhea: It was the course and exponential fundraising. And it really opened my eyes to a lot of stuff I teach today, honestly, I credit her with helping me to understand that fundraising is actually not about the money. It's about the relationships.

Analiza: Nice. What's your definition of a Boss Mama?

Rhea: A Boss Mama is someone who lives unapologetically and does what she wants to do.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Rhea: I would say, Don't pay attention to the haters.

Analiza: Can you share your socials, all those LinkedIn all the different ways they can contact you?

Rhea: LinkedIn is my most active platform. I basically ignore all the rest. So I'm not I have accounts, but I don't really check Facebook or Twitter, all the rest of it. So LinkedIn is the jam and then rhealwong.com is where you can find all the action.

Analiza: Perfect. And then last question, Rhea. Do you have a final ask, recommendation, parting thoughts to share?

Rhea: Let's make 2023 the year of accomplishing without hustle. Like I think hustle culture has really worn all of us down. And so can 2023 be the year of ease and the year of success.

Analiza: Love it. Rhea, a pleasure. You're a pleasure. I love spending time with you. Thank you so much for all the wisdom

Rhea: Analiza, this is so fun anytime. This has been great. Thank you for having me.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time today to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, please share with someone else you can share the link and posts on Facebook and say check it out. Lastly, I want to thank you for being a listener and you can go to get a free self care bonus called juice your joy at analizawolf.com/freebonus. Thank you so much.