Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise Podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipina American, mom of two, and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the US Air Force. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. We'll be talking with successful CEOs and C suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys. If you're a woman or woman of color, who wants a seat at the table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I am thrilled to be talking with Michelle Palmer today. She became the Executive Director of Breakthrough of Greater Philadelphia in 2021. And it was the culmination of decades of work in education as a teacher and leader. She's very committed to making education fair and accessible, particularly about social justice. And she's so passionate about it that she actually teaches a class at the Germantown Friends School, Upper School on social justice. She's also the co-founder of the Germantown Friends School alumni of color program and was the first manager there. She has a Master's of Science of Education, Master of Science in Nonprofit Management from the New School University and a Bachelor's from Temple. Welcome, Michelle, a proud mama. Happy to have you.

Michelle: Thank you so much. Nice to be here. Thank you.

Analiza: So Michelle, I actually am a Breakthrough kid so far back that it was actually called Summer Bridge. So this is particularly connected to my heart, because I really believe in it and actually taught in Breakthrough Summerbridge back then in Hong Kong. So there's so much Gosh, it's amazing. It's amazing. I mean, Breakthrough not only helps kids with programming during the summer with leadership and academics and social emotional learning, but it also helps kids be teachers. So that's a really nice way of promoting leadership, even after you graduate is that you can continue supporting the cycle. So really, really excited to talk with you, especially that connection.

Michelle: Thank you. Yes. And one of my former colleagues here was at Breakthrough Hong Kong. Andrew Lee, I don't know if that name sounds familiar to you, but okay. But yeah, that's amazing. So yeah, and I love Breakthrough. This is like the best job I've ever had.

Analiza: So let's talk about Michelle, and start from the beginning. I'm curious, because you have had a very thematic career. Did you always know this is what you're going to do? Little Michelle growing up as a plan.

Michelle: Not at all, this was not my plan at all. So I grew up in a single parent household and Philadelphia and my mother, she worked for the state of Pennsylvania for 37 and a half years and you know, she traveled everywhere they go back to work and I was pretty much a kid who was in the house and just you know, did reading and that stuff around the house, you know, cooking and things like that. I wasn't really she was kind of strict, you know, like so I wound up fast forward. I went to Central High School here in Pennsylvania, which is one of the number one high schools in Pennsylvania public school. And then I went to Westchester and I wanted to be an English teacher and I was there for two years and I was like okay, you know, but also had this passion for music that I just never left me since I was younger. I always like making my own little mixtapes. And when there were cassette tapes, like I would be recording the DJ on the radio and then recording the song then running it back so I could like get the next song. So we'd like go perfectly and smoothly doing all this with a cassette tape back in the day. And I was just like, I loved music.

And so after I left Temple, I mean after I left Westchester, I decided to leave Westchester to transfer to Temple University, and majored in broadcast and telecommunications and mass media because I wanted to be a DJ, I wanted to be in the entertainment industry. I was like, this is like I was gonna pursue my passion in it. And so I had a really you know, great time at Temple and learned a lot and learned what was for me and what wasn't for me, I had an internship at Power 99 which is like the big R&B radio station here. And then I had to start getting up at like four in the morning. And I was literally just answering phones like I didn't get on the radio. I was just like, oh, this is what I have to do. Like I have to answer phones where people calling it and it was just like a lot of grunt work behind the scenes and I was like, Ah, I don't know if I like this anymore.

So then I was like, let me you know try something else. So I moved to New York City after graduating from Temple and was like, Okay, I'm going to like break into the radio industry. I want to be an a&r. I want to discover artists so you know loving my passion for music, everything I'm always like still making my different Slow Jam tapes my regular you know, all different we're texting. Now we're moving kind of like inching towards CDs. And so I applied for a couple jobs. And I had a job that I was applying for it with Bad Boy Records, but I didn't get it. And it says, So I turned around and just like, okay, my cousin was like, why don't you just need a job, like, you can't just keep flipping around, like figuring out what you're gonna do. So she gave me a job and development, I came back to Philadelphia, she gave me Java development. And I was like, Oh, I like this, you know.

So I kind of started doing a whole bunch of different things, and development work. And development is essentially fundraising. And so I did that work at the Philadelphia Orchestra for a while, and just learned all aspects of the fundraising life. Then I decided to move back to New York City. And I went and worked at a school. And from there, that's what I just stayed in education. So I started out really in the fundraising department at a school.

And then when I moved back to Philly, again, I've been back and forth a few times from floods in New York. And then when I moved back to Philadelphia, I wound up coming to Germantown friend school. And that's when I really started, like, my real passion for teaching and all that kind of stuff. So it's been like a varied background of how I got there. And I don't even know if I've said it all in the exact way. But yeah, so I kind of wound up in education in a backwards way, like I started off in English, wanted to be an English teacher, music, then development, and then moved back into teaching. So it's been a windy, little road, but it's been a great time.

Analiza: You know, Michelle, sometimes you have three kids, I have to, and in thinking about careers, you know, we asked the question, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And yet, things change, right? Like, young Michelle was like, I'm gonna be a DJ, which is awesome. Dream myself, I'm doing that one day, but I want to be a DJ. And then that path led you to explore the things development teaching, and then led you here. So it says, If this idea of following your passion is true, and yet be open, be open to new experiences, which could lead exactly to what matters. So I love that. Tell me something, Michelle, because there were things you thought were true that now at our wise age, are a few years of experience, or decades or so. Tell me Michelle, what myths back in the day do you realize now are actually not true?

Michelle: What myths back in the day myths back in the day is that it's just for me, it was easy to break into the entertainment industry, that's not easy. Move. It's also I would say about growing up, you mean, like, let's see, as a younger, I was kind of told that, you know, my place was kind of like, we didn't talk about career paths. In my household, we kind of just talked about jobs. And then like your moves, like just being in the household, being a homemaker, like a woman's places in certain places, like the kitchen, the bedroom, you know, like those type of things are myths that I was told when I was growing up not directly from my mother, but from around from other people that were in my family close to us. And then I want to be the first person to go to college. So those myths that you're only supposed to be certain things as a woman are what you know, I feel like I bumped you know, there's no certain place a woman is supposed to be.

Analiza: That is so true. Often, there are people who mean the best for us give us these messages. And they talk about the home, the bedroom and the kitchen, when actually the world is our oyster, we can do anything exactly defined by what was. So I love that path, because it's quite open minded. And so thinking about even your career path and how you continue to grow and lead breakthrough, add to Greater Philadelphia, are there any like, Oh, I'm really glad I learned the skill, or I really glad that I was able to have this one experience or a couple experiences that really propelled you to be ready for this top roll.

Michelle: Yeah, I would say that I'm glad I was a person who always, you know, for instance, some of my colleagues always called me like a taskmaster. Like, I'm glad that I have delved into a lot of different roles, because it showed me all the different ways that business unfolds. So if, for example, like when my development career, I did, you know, work at the box office for a short period of time, I did do some special event work, I did development work and just cold calls and doing thank you notes. I did like kind of all the different aspects that go into fundraising that now and the role of the Executive Director, I know what it takes to make a nonprofit work, in essence, and it didn't just come from me getting a master's in nonprofit management. It came from me having so many different roles and not being scared to take on those roles and being willing to do pretty much anything I'm gonna type of person and I'm still this way, like there's no job that I do as the executive director that I wouldn't help my staff do. And so, you know, because I've been so long, so for me having the being able to have the experience, there's so many different aspects of the fundraising, that working with volunteers has really given me what I needed to propel, now and to be successful in the role.

Analiza: So Michelle, thinking about what your unique talents and strengths you bring to this role. You mentioned passion, talk about what other skills you bring.

Michelle: Okay? So my passion is number one, but I bring a friendliness, I bring a willingness to work hard, a desire to create change, I want to see our students and our teaching fellows really excel in their lives and be exposed to a variety of different career options. I want to give them a one up in this world, you know, I feel like sometimes our public education system, unfortunately, is failing our students in a lot of different ways. And coming to break through is a way to combat that problem. And so for me, it is the passion, and it's the willingness to work hard, and, you know, to do whatever it takes to make sure the students have what they need at all times. And our teaching fellows.

Analiza: Michelle, one of the things you have is this, not just passion, but also ability to be tough. And it is not easy as women of color to be at the table and really ask for what we want. And so I'd love for you to break down this strength of negotiation and talking about where did you get that strength, many of us struggle, I struggle with just being so direct about what it is that I want. So tell us about, like, Give us an example of negotiation in your work now. And then we'll talk about where that came from.

Michelle: So yeah, negotiation is not always something that has always come easy. It came from me really starting to believe in myself and to believe in my self worth. And to understand that it's, I deserve to have a seat at the table. I think when I was younger, I had imposter syndrome. You know, I never thought that I would be in a position to actually be an executive director of a nonprofit the way I am, because I have worked in so many nonprofits for so many years. And I saw, I looked at it as a space where, especially for the fundraising side, that who was going to want to give to this black woman, right. But at the end of the day, I deserve to have a seat at the table just like anyone else. I have seen now through my negotiations, that it's really just conversations like, my belief in myself, I know that everyone, no one is better than me. We're all human beings. And I deserve to ask and challenge something, if I feel like it's necessary.

Just recently, with a donor, there was a negotiation that was going on back and forth about how they wanted to give, you know, money to the organization. And at first, you know, they were very adamant. And I was kind of just like, okay, you know, because I've always been taught that a donor is right, you want to make your donors happy, because they're giving too, but I had to go back and challenge it a little bit. Because at the end of the day, it would not be good for the overall picture of the organization. And it could honestly be a little bit more detrimental.

So I just make I you know, let that phone call, you know, we hung up, and then I was like, Okay, then I'm gonna pick up the phone and call back again. Like, actually, we need to talk about this some more. And because it just didn't sit right with me. And they were very amenable to it, you know, and it wound up being, you know, I didn't win, and you don't always win with negotiations, but I gave it a chance I gave it a try. And I think that's the biggest thing, you have to be willing to take a risk, be willing to ask because you know, all you have to get as a no, you know, hopefully it's a yes. But you know, if you don't ask and put yourself out there and believe in yourself and believing why you're asking for something, then it will never happen. And I think that's the biggest art of negotiation, believing in yourself. And the reason why you're want to negotiate that problem or whatever it is, and then go for it. And sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. But if you don't go for it, then you'll never know.

Analiza: Okay, this is very helpful, because it is so practical in terms of steps of what we can do. So I want to try to break it down for Michelle even more. So first is the belief in yourself. Second is ask for it. So can you actually tell me more about that? Because Is there a way in which you ask you mentioned, here's why I care about the mission, but like, can you if you were to structure? Here's sort of how you asked for it in a successful way. Could you break that ask down?

Michelle: Yeah, I think you asked for based on your argument of why this would work or would not work. Right. You have to have your life together. So you know, I need to talk to you more about this situation because the facts are if we do it this way, it will unpack the organization in this way. So really having your reasons together of why your argument of why it will or will not work, and putting that out there, like so I think that's the biggest thing. It's great to justify, justify your argument being able to justify it.

Analiza: So first, believe in yourself, Second, make the ask, here's why we should do as why. And let me make sure it's really clear that all of this is based on facts, and really trying to make sure we're aligned at the same mission. And the third is, no matter what they ask because the worst that can happen is they say no, which would have happened had you never made the ask.

Michelle: Right, you have to ask and somehow on top of it, so when the situation that I was just in, it was a no, but I did get another perk from it at the end, you know what they said, okay, but I'll do XYZ for you instead. So I was like, okay, you know, so it was a sort of a win for me, you know, like, if I didn't make that call, I wouldn't have got that second win. If I didn't pick up the phone of it, just taking that first like, okay, no, you know, this is just it. This is the answer to the question. And this is what I said, No, but if I didn't make that second call, and actually, can we talk about this a little bit more, then this is where the negotiation came in process. And even though I didn't win, I still was able to get something else out of it, that was beneficial for the organization.

Analiza: It's great. I mean, you don't have to get the 100% win. Even a partial win is a win. So I love that.

Michelle: Even a partial win is a win. Yeah, that's right.

Analiza: So Michelle, I want to take this concept and actually bring it down to negotiation for salary. Because that's also a scary thing. And I want to get specific on asking for what we want, so it could be a salary, or it could be recognition, or it could be promotion, or I'd love to hear from your own life. It doesn't have to be this role on how you negotiate anything for this role. But any time in your life where you've negotiated with your manager about really getting what you want, for you specifically,

Michelle: I've done it a few times, but I will write down every single thing of why I feel like I deserve to get a new increase in salary. And because and go from where I started from where the new things that I've implemented, and the time and the value of commitment that I've had my family's first but I'll do work around the clock, sometimes, you know, and so I'm have a point now in my life where you know, I work all day, I get my kids, then I'll come back and get them set up for the night, make dinner, all that good stuff in between, and then go right back to work. And so like, when you're working so hard, you have to take a step back and say, oh, wow, you know, I'm doing all these things like, you know, you deserve it.

Analiza: So I hear that, again, have faith in yourself and your worth, and that what you're contributing is valuable and important. So I hear that theme. And then I hear making a list from where you started, where you are now, what have you been doing? And what are the results of that? And then third is, let's name the sacrifice that you have been giving up with yourself and your not your family, because you've been putting them first but we want to name that there is some sacrifice, and so you should be compensated. So those are really, really practical tips. Have I covered everything in the rooms, and Michelle, I want to make sure I add this other piece to this.

Michelle: I was gonna say in terms of family, though, that's not the piece that I would bring to the table. I think that's the piece that drives me to like, let me write these things down. Because I know in my head, I'm sacrificing certain things. I'm not going to say to my employer, like, Okay, I miss my kids basketball game, you know, like those, you can't do that. I wouldn't do that. I would be using those as a motivation. Like, okay, I missed this game. But look, I'm doing XYZ and this is why I deserve you know what I mean? Like, there's so many people not saying that people don't care. But I don't know if I wouldn't bring that part to the table. I think that's just a motive, your own motivation and yourself to say like, okay, like, I know, I miss these things. But I know that I'm making these strides, and I'm doing it for my family ultimately.

Analiza: That's great. Michelle, I know you have three boys and a son who's about to go to college. Can you talk about negotiation at home? What kind of mindset or strategies can you share or even examples from the past?

Michelle: So I have two boys and a girl, the girl is the youngest. And so she's the baby and I negotiate with her all the time also, because every time we go to Target, she wants something. So it's like, no, you can't get something every time you go to Target.

But as far as my older son, just trying to figure out, you know, he's at a stage in his life where he feels like he's basically almost grown, you know, but it's, he's still my responsibility. You're 17 and you cannot just come and go as you please. You know, you have to have rules and regulations in my house. So, you know, negotiation. Oh, how late can we stay out? Can I spend the night at a friend's house? Oh, a girl's house, you know, who's going to be there? Like the site with things you know, I'm negotiating with him all the time to like, Okay, well if I need to know who you're going to Be with, Okay, well, then there's an app called Live 360. We're putting that on your phone. So if you plan on staying out past 12, or one o'clock, I need to know exactly where you are in negotiation is. And if you don't answer the phone, when I call you, you, this will never happen again. So those are the negotiations like, Okay, you adhere to certain roles, then maybe you will get a little bit of late leeway, you know, because again, he is going to college for six months. And as he says he's going to be able to do, I don't know what he's doing then when he goes to college, which is true, but as we are now we have to be respectful. So I'm always constantly negotiating with him. I'm like, I want him to have fun, I want him to enjoy his high school life. But we have to be in a balance, you know, of where you let me you're checking in. And, you know, I need to know who you're with and keep that app on your phone, even though some of our friends think I'm crazy for doing that. But anyway, so. But Philadelphia is a lot going on in Philadelphia right now. So I know and you know, all over the country, but I'm a mama bear. So I'm, I worry.

Analiza: Michelle, as a mom, myself, we have nothing to apologize for. All we're trying to do is make sure our kids are safe, and we get they're gonna flip. But until they're gone and leave the nest, they are still with our nest. So exactly. That's right. So Michelle, are there any words of wisdom or even mistakes that you've made where you want to share with us? Here's how that was a pivotal lesson learned that you can share so we can learn from you.

Michelle: I think I have to take a pivotal lesson, okay, so when I was telling you, I got that interview with the record label, I went to the interview, and I was like, ready, I'm like, Okay, I'm going to work for this record label. And you know, I'm gonna get this job. And I got there and the person who greeted me to bring back was like, dressed in like jeans and, like, very, like casual. And she brought me back. And then she introduced me to another woman. And I don't know, I was must have been nervous. I just wasn't really paying attention to the names like I should have been. And so we had, I thought the interview was going great. It didn't go well. It was really good. And then we get to the end. And I thought the woman who she brought in was actual boss. And I only thought that because she was dressed more fancy than the person was. So I went and I thanked the lady. And I was like, thank you so much Mrs. Smith for meeting with me today, you know, and she was like, that's her. Like, I'm such a such and so you can see the other lady's face, like I can just see it. And it was just like, cuz she was the boss, she was the one who was in charge. And I just totally misread and misstep that.

So I would just say like, that was like a critical moment for me when I realized, like, pay attention. Communication is key, like, reiterate people's names, like understand who you're talking to know your audience, because I felt like, I just blew my whole giant chance of getting that job, because I was not paying attention to and because of my preconceived notion that she came out with jeans on and like was casual. And this other woman had like a business suit on that she was the boss. And it was absolutely the reverse. So hence I didn't get that job. But it's all good.

Analiza: You can be a DJ right now, Michelle, you know, I just did say if you've only got one DJ, that's amazing.

Michelle: I will say a second critical thing for me was when I had my first good job and development in New York. It was for a small Baroque Orchestra and Baroque is like early classical music like pre Beethoven and Bach. It was great. I was like, I was living in New York, I was traveling back and forth to Boston all the time. I was finally making money, like I didn't have any kids at the time. It was just like, yeah, like I was in my 20s. Like, oh, my goodness, like, it was great. And then, you know, started having a little bit too much fun in New York City and then calling out of work. And you know, at that time, there was no like, okay, work from home, there was none of that. Like, it was like you came to work. And that's it. And so at the time, my boss would say, oh, yeah, it's fine. It's fine. It's, and I guess after too many call outs, and you know, this is over, like a course of a period of time. It wasn't like an day thing, but when they were just like, Okay, we have to let you go. And I was like and so it taught me like, first of all, everybody is replaceable.

But second of all, you have to have a work ethic, like you can't, you know, call out of work and think that it's okay, just because people don't reprimand you, you know, they'll look in like, okay, we're in an office every day. Where are you? You know, you can't come to work today. Why? Because you're too tired from hanging out last night like so it just became like, alright, this is you know, you have to have a work life balance. And I learned that really fast like my mom was always such a dedicated, hard working person, and I am too but in your 20s You know, when you get your first job and you're like partying up, you think that everything is like, right, like, I'll get my work done. So what? And then to get fired from that job I was like, so it was, those are all stories.

Analiza: I hope you have shared them with your kids.

Michelle: I have not.

Analiza: It is powerful

I have to say that it's real, right? We often think let's just axon and there are no consequences when actually there are. So can we do? And also exactly get fired.

Michelle: Everybody adores you, everybody's replaceable. And I was, I really was like, I was feeling like myself like that. I thought that I was like, because I was doing all this stuff. And I was traveling back and forth with musicians like oh, you know, I'm fine. You know, like, and then No.

Analiza: I mean, I just wanted to focus on that, because I've been enrolled Michelle, where I think, Wow, I'm doing not just my job, but multiple jobs. And while I'm well liked, and I'm doing a fantastic job, and everyone seems to be happy with what I'm doing. And you think, Well, I'm so safe, but the reality is right? Not you never say Right, exactly, guaranteed. So make sure you put your best foot forward. Also enjoy your legs. don't take things for granted.

Michelle: Don't take it for granted, you have to put your best foot forward at all times. You can't take anything for granted. And so it took me like those two experiences like really like, okay, the real world, it's serious, you know, this is not just any type of like play like this is you have to like go to work and do your job and do it right. You know, and do it to your best ability because there's always gonna be somebody else out here who could come into the same thing you do. And you can be replaced. So it was eye opening, but it would taught me the work ethic I have now you know.

Analiza: I hope you share that. Oh my gosh, I can't imagine you showing up with like, I've been fired once. Or even could start with. I would be a DJ had I not you know. It's great. I hope that you do that speech. Let's do a lightning round. Are you ready?

Michelle: Sure. Sure.

Analiza: Chocolate or vanilla?

Michelle: Chocolate.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Michelle: Cookie. I like to cook.

Analiza: What would you rather do? Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Michelle: Climb a mountain? I'm a walker. Yeah, I can hike. Jump from a plane. That sounds terrifying. Yeah.

Analiza: How about socks with sandals? Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Michelle: Yes. Because sometimes my toes might not be done. I can't have them out. Yes. Or I've done it at the beach. Honestly, because the sand was too hot. So yes. Done it.

Analiza: Karaoke skills on a scale of one to 10? 10 being Mariah Carey.

Michelle: Oh, no, not Mariah Carey. I would say a seven. I love karaoke, though. That's like one of my favorite things. I would just say karaoke on Friday night. Like, I love karaoke. And you know, going and having fun and making fun of people say that people make fun of me. But I can't sing a lick. So I would say a five. Yeah.

Analiza: About a recent book you've read.

Michelle: I just read The Light You Carry by Michelle Obama. And honestly, it was my first book. And a while because I read so much for just school and break through. I don't get to choose to just read for pleasure. And lately, when I pick up a book to read for pleasure, I fall asleep. So it was a great book. And I've joined a book club, actually, because I just needed to restart my love of reading again. So we just read that and we're about to read homecoming. Have you read that? We're about to read that next. But I was like, I had to get out of my comfort zone. So just join a book club because I feel like that's the only thing that's going to keep you accountable and reading right now.

Analiza: What's a good professional development that you have done?

Michelle: Well, I will say SEED because I have facilitated SEED. As I started out with SEED during a professional development about five years ago, SEED stands for seeking educational equity and diversity. And it's all about connecting with people and telling your story about yourself in order to change the world, you know, don't like we all have our past and trying to figure out why we operate the way we do with each other. Why does racism exist the way it does? Why do people think about each other the way they do and it really comes about? It’s about telling your internal stories. And so it's been great for me when I did it. I was just in love with the program and examined every aspect of life including race, sexism, religion, you know, it's so great. So see, I would highly suggest that it is mainly based in school, but it's you know, you can find SEED groups all over.

Analiza: What's your favorite way to practice self care?

Michelle: I love to just binge watch a good show and snuggle up under the covers. Yeah, I watch the same shows over and over again. Like, I love the wire. I could just watch like the wire all the time. I like the Sopranos. I like, you know, I like a variety of different shows, but I will. I just like binge watching shows and just like doing nothing sometimes that's the way I do self care because I'm always on the go like, I'm a sports Mom, I'm always a mabele Mom, I'm always going out, you know, and then I'm a full time worker and I teach, so I'm always constantly going. So when I get a chance to do nothing, that's when I wanted to binge watch a show. And just, yeah.

Analiza: What's your definition of a Boss Mama?

Michelle: Someone who can keep it all together with a smile, like somebody who can multitask, keep going, and you know, do it all and make it look good at the same time. Like you're exhausted, but you know, you keep it going. You're able to multitask in a variety of different ways that people don't even know you're tired of. And you do it. Obviously.

Analiza: Nice. What advice would you give your younger self?

Michelle: My younger self, I would say, believe in yourself. Work hard. Pay attention to the details. You know, I think that a lot of times younger people, we think we know it all, when we're younger, and you don't know at all, I think the main thing would be believing yourself, you know, really understand that we all have a purpose. And so you will find your purpose, and life will have its challenges. But as long as you believe in yourself, you are capable of anything.

Analiza: And where can we find you like LinkedIn or any social media feeds?

Michelle: Yes, I'm on LinkedIn. Just Michelle Palmer.

Analiza: So do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts to share?

Michelle: This has been wonderful. I think you know, women, I think we rule the world and we're capable of so much. And I think that we are asked to do so much because they are able to do everything. And so I just think we have to always find our balance in life. Because we will be tasked to do so much. And find the balance is key. So find the balance and keep believing in yourself.

Analiza: Beautiful. Thanks so much, Michelle, for these wonderful stories, which I hope you've shared with your little ones or not so little ones. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Michelle: Thank you.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time today to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, please share with someone else you can share the link and posts on Facebook and say check it out. Lastly, I want to thank you for being a listener and you can go to get a free self care bonus called juicy your joy at analizawolf.com/freebonus. Thank you so much