Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise Podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipina American, mom of two, and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the US Air Force. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. We'll be talking with successful CEOs and C suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys. If you're a woman or woman of color, who wants a seat at the table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I am thrilled to be talking with Judy Saunders. Today, Judy is a partner at ASK LLP. And she's gonna give us a bio about her, but just wanted to share that you know she's got her Education School of Law JD from the University of Maryland, and also her BA from Oakland University and is the proud mom of two sons. So I'm excited, Judy, thank you so much for being here. Can you talk about how your identity shaped your path?

Judie: So most notably, being a woman of color, an African American woman, an African Caribbean woman, I pull all of those things, and all of those have made my identity. It made me very proud. They, they're part of a culture that also serves as the foundation for my life, for my working life, my personal life. So there's a lot of different projections that have been placed on me, it's also been the identity quote, unquote, that's been projected on me has also been the source of shame. Whether that be you know, shame and being a black in America, or an African American in America or being a woman in America, you know, so those things, but if I, from what I've learned from teachers like Eckhart Tolle, and that book a New Earth is that once you are able to shed those projected identities and realize that you're really just, you know, observing and learning constantly, then I know that I'm at my happiest and most successful.

Analiza: Shedding those societal definitions, stereotypes, is incredibly difficult. And yet a key to freedom. And Judy, in your career path, I mean, you went from having your JD, your partner track, taking time off to be with your amazing boys, and then coming back in continuing because you've been consulting the entire time for the mayor of New York City. And now as a partner at Ask LLP. I'm curious, because there's quite a lot of accolades, right as a black woman, and you're rising up, and you're being a mom, and yet to divulge or separate this success, right? Because that's quite a successful career path. And then also to realize that's actually not you. Can you talk about that? Because I actually want to get more in the details of how one rises and doesn't check out and become a mock, right? I'm like, I'm out of here. Good luck, boy's partner. I'm about to go to, you know, an island and meditate, like, how do you put those two together?

Judie: Sure. So putting it together, you know that and the one thing that I would say to all of the listeners, and is that getting to be a partner now at ASK LLP, running and leading their sexual abuse practice group was not an always a skyrocketing upward trajectory. Of course, there were valleys, there were dips, there were setbacks, there was incredible self doubt, but all of that came together because what propelled me was the upbringing that I have was the home that I came from. It was this undeniable pole and attraction that I've always had to get out there to discover to learn I am hopelessly curious, hopelessly and for better or worse, I will try most things just one time legally, most things legally, but I will try just once and I so that has been the rocket fuel that regardless of what role I've been in.

So studying and just being drenched and loved in the African American community, attending a historically black college HBCU. We're in Alabama, the Bible Belt, all of that goes into my story. Also, I'm having parents that came here from Trinidad and Tobago, they themselves were raised Seventh Day Adventist, and they attended Howard University in Washington, DC, which is where I was born. But they were also driven. So I had parents that were from large families, but they were driven by education, and this curiosity and this dream, to keep learning and to keep showing their kids. I have an older brother and an older sister. And that's kind of been my guide, so to speak, that kind of silent guide. So whether I was after graduating, and not knowing what I wanted to do, it was at that point, being curious, I said, You know what, Judy, you're going to go to Capitol Hill. And that was pre, you know, even having a personal computer.

And I remember opening the Yellow Pages and saying, Okay, what are you going to do? So I opened the Yellow Pages, and it was maybe the day before, so before graduation, and I was going through the different, you know, what can I do when I came upon the Democratic National Committee, they were in Washington, DC on South Capitol Street, and I called him up and I got things together. And I worked that out. So I ended up working there. And having an amazing experience. I was there on Capitol Hill during the time with Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas, I started my practice of law in New York City, and it was phenomenal. It was amazing. And that was my first introduction to dealing with sexual misconduct, sexual violence, being injured by sexual crimes, and working, understanding, investigating, arriving at precincts to interview individuals who had done heinous things to other individuals bodies, whether it was their daughters or their girlfriend's sister, you know, there's a host of different perpetrators. So that was my first introduction. And that was heavy, heavy stuff.

And I'd have to say that that was probably a pivotal moment in my career, where I wasn't really ready to emotionally deal with that, because you're hearing those stories. And you're in your mind you I'm coming from a more suburban mindset also, and I'm arriving in Brooklyn, New York. And as a government attorney, I don't care what kind of government attorney you're not getting paid six figure salaries, but you're working the same amount of time. And you're at that point, I'm not sure if they still do it, but you're sleeping at the office, because you're doing you're responding directly to police precincts. And that was a lot of work. But it was amazing training, amazing. Trial training, investigator training, how to question witnesses, experts, police how to discern. So that set the foundation for skills that I use to this day. And then if you take the route, there was a time that I did take a career step back, I never left the profession, I was strategic and use part of my time to grow my family, and now I have two boys. But I continue to do trials at that time and continue to work with the causes that I care about. Those causes include working with women working with women of color working with individuals that have been imprisoned.

Analiza: So Judy, I want to take some themes and highlight them first is the power of curiosity, and being able to be open to so many different things, not knowing what the outcome would be. But following your passion, your parents values that of attending, they had attended an HBCU, caring about education, being immigrants, making a difference, and also just being open to the path following this campaign. I mean, you're there during Anita Hill, Clarence Thomas. That the whole craziness and then seeing where it would lead you. And that led you then to Brooklyn as a litigator. So I want to go toward this piece of being a mother. And you'd said I was strategic about this decision to take time and focus on mommyhood, while also having a foot solidly at work. Can you talk about what made you decide at that moment? For how long? What was that bring us into the life, like you decide and what was that, you know, tension that you were able to figure out how to balance?

Judie: I think that your ending that question with tension is the perfect definition for that time period when I had a career step back, and I owe it to your listeners to be transparent with this because I know that there's so many parents, not only women, but there's so many parents that struggle, mostly women still have struggle with the decision how to be get continued achieving at work, continuing with your goals, but now you're presented with a life that you're entrusted with. And it was a struggle. And I definitely looking back, I would say, although there were one or two things that I knew I wanted to achieve one I was going to go, I knew I was going to go back to work in a full time capacity. But at times, I didn't know if I would reenter if it was going to be reentering as an attorney. At times, I struggled with just getting childcare. So I would say that God was really smile on mothers that are trying to figure out how to balance the two because you'd have your objective where you're saying, You know what, today I'm going to get up, I'm going to meet this client, I'm going to sign a new client, you're excited about that this was great. You know, you're going to get this retainer, you're going to keep sharpening your skills.

And then you know, we all know it, then the kid walks down, downstairs, your child walks downstairs and throws up in his, you know, his throne, a fever of 104. Well, what are you going to do your plans have changed? And that also, I'd say that time from understanding, because the tension was still Nope, I am going to complete these professional objectives aren't going to be this, I'm going to have this identity of being this litigator. I'm tough as nails, you know, I run marathons, I try cases, I'm not going to let your being sick stop me. And you know, that was the most powerful learning lesson was that? No, my children need me. I have to figure this out. And how do I do this? And I have to figure this out without being angry and frustrated, because who absorbs that? And that's what I'm going to put out into the world is, you know, anxious, irritable kids, because the parents are arable, anxious. So that was a huge lesson. So it was a lot of tension. And it was a lot of learning along the way, during that time period.

Analiza: Judy, when he made that decision to focus on family, and we're naming that it's not like oh, now it's all rainbows. Here you are packing lunches, being class mom, and Ooh, yeah. You have a few cases on the side? No, actually, they're in direct tension. And beyond the kid that throws up. There's a real identity piece here. And it goes back to your first comment about Eckhart Tolle. That who are we is not the societal construct. marathon runner, you know, board member power litigator, it's actually something else, right. And having to step out of something else is both empowering, but also scary as hell. And it's crushing. And I want to actually talk about this, because often, you know, you hear these people, they're like, yeah, look at me, I'm CEO, I'm really, you know, I'm doing all the things and going on these trips. But there's an identity piece that we need to get over ourselves. And it's so difficult. And I haven't had a lot of conversations about this, I think because it tends to happen, not in your 20s or 30s. what happens later in life, looking and seeing these different options? Can you talk about that? Because talk about, okay, I see myself as this and yet my kids need me? And no, I'm not the societal construct? And what did it take for you to then say, okay, and I'm this, and I'm going to be okay, because there are trade offs here. So can you please just go deeper into that idea? what did that mean for you?

Judie: That was a lot of work. And it was a lot of crying a lot of tears. It was a lot of frustration, separating myself from these different identities. And the learning was accelerated when I was trying to balance career and parenting because the one thing that you know, if you don't have kids, go and spend some time around kids and there is no greater teacher that will accelerate you in divorcing yourself from identity or what you think or who you want to be. If it is, if you think that you are on your path to power and being this individual, they'll correct you they will of course correct you on that. So becoming a parent and then being married and parenting with also a litigator in working in New York City with a very demanding job, who was building his career. That was also a lot of tension.

And it came to the point where either I was going to break and I did break, meaning that I broke that identity of, you're going to be this particular person, you're going to be who you lay down and looked up at the ceiling and dreamed about in your bed when you were a teen, and you were going to do this, and you were going to, you know, be twirling around New York City, and you know, having this amazing, wonderful life, you're gonna be living in this glass box with floor to ceiling windows and going to the fancy parties. I mean, those are going to be Yeah, you may have some iteration of that. But it was that introduction into my dream, I have two boys that literally and figuratively, took me by the face with their little sticky hands or like, Look at me. And by looking at them, I saw myself and was able, then to say, the only way you're going to really achieve any type of personal and professional success is if you stop being so inflexible about who you are, and what it is, you need to achieve in this amount of time. And what you need to do, you know, the deadlines, the expectations, I say, actually, that word expectations, I imposed a lot of expectations on myself.

And it wasn't until, you know, I saw how fluid parenting demands that you be, and I took that skill set, being fluid and apply that then professionally. And I would say that's when I really started to enjoy, because I've had successes in the past, but I never enjoyed them in the past. So being more fluid, which is really losing the identity and also rejecting those identities that when we were talking about before those societal expectations and identities, I rejected those and said, You know what, I have to be more fluid with this, I have to understand that what I thought I was and what I thought I was going to achieve and certain time periods, it's not going to happen. And guess what? That's okay.

Analiza: Oh, my gosh. So I want to try to take this, and I'm a person who's tries to codify practices. So Judy, first is that our teachers, our kids can be the most powerful and hard, tough teachers. And if we can pause and actually look at our kids, we can often see ourselves. So that's so powerful. Second is this idea of being more fluid, that as much as we've had this picture painted of success and the American dream, that we are not that, that we are more than that. And that if we can lean into this river of flexibility and allow ourselves instead of pushing against the river, which you know, we're not going to win, allow us to flow with the river, there can be so much more joy. And the third thing is taking a stand and releasing those sinusoidal definitions. I think that like we keep pointing to Eckhart Tolle, but we are not that we are not these metrics I want to ask about healing. When we see our kids, we often see ourselves, especially when they're super sticky and cute. And I'm wondering for you that you've said to me, nothing can be accomplished without having the healing. So can you talk about that for you? What does it mean?

Judie: Yes, I have been engaging in this practice that I've been doing professionally with my life coach, and it requires that every day you write down your goals for the year, your goals for the decade, why you came, and a quote that resonates with you. So I started doing that maybe toward the end of last year, and I couldn't get any real response for myself that was authentic, as to why I can't. Why am I here? Why are you on this earth? What's your purpose? We're all of those. That same question. What are you doing? What did you know? It was easy. I could put down that I'm a litigator, and I want to grow my practice. And I want to help people. And yes, that's the obvious, but I wanted something that really transcended both professional and personal life and that, more importantly, it was authentic and rang true to me.

And it came to me maybe in January, February of this year, that why are you here, part of what you're here is to heal and to release resistance. And as I was writing that down, and this practice that I do every day, it came to me that as a litigator who is especially representing and dealing with this area of sexual abuse, sexual misconduct, sexual harassment, it came to me that how can I really work? In this area of work with clients, if there are things that are going on internally that just aren't grounded. And that's when it really started to make sense to me that in order to really help clients to really do this part of the practice of law to do this part of my practice that I needed to heal, and what was I and so that started then, this questioning to me now, which is really powerful in being a litigator.

And it's funny, because it would seem obvious because part of being a litigator is asking questions, whether it's you're asking questions, when you're getting a case on an intake, whether it's you're investigating it more deeply, or whether you're standing in front of a jury, and you're doing direct and cross, you're asking questions, but for some reason, I never turned that on myself. And was using that same tool to help myself understand things. But then when I started to get that, that I came here, part of what I'm here is to heal. It was then I started to say, then I started to turn those questions in, what are you healing from what's going on what's happening, and I realized, and it was really came to the forefront, with the most recent awakening in America as to the systemic and institutional injustice and wrongs within the African American community with the murder of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and there's so many that we can name and I have always grown up knowing about this. But I say all that to say that this healing, this response to this practice that I was doing daily, was, has come to be an understanding that I needed to heal from what had gone on around me what I had gone on within my community, and I needed to do that, and not run away from it. And in doing that healing, we can talk about some of the things that I've done. To do that has made me a much better litigator, it's made me a much better attorney, a much better advocate for my clients. So that healing was, it was fundamental to getting me where I am today.

Analiza: Can you talk about your practice? What does it look like you said some of your daily practices, but anything else needs support, and we'd love to hear details.

Judie: So I'll start by saying my daily practices. And this obviously, it will look different for everyone. But I think that being introduced to Dr. Shefali, who is the author of conscious parenting, conscious family, radical awakening, being introduced to her, led me to the practice of meditation. I love, love love, especially for individuals of color in the African American community. I've come upon this app called alchemy, and it has the most beautiful guided meditations and sound baths. I start my day with that. That's part of my healing. Also included in that I follow a really great teacher. She comes out of the Buddhist tradition. Tara Brach. So that's part of my practice, I probably listened to maybe 20 minutes or so of guided meditation. It helps me show up, it helps me listen better as an attorney, it helps me listen better with individuals that I manage, also part of that practice.

And this is just something like me, I've always been super active, I've had a lot of energy that needs to get out. So I'm an avid runner, I run every day I weight train, I put in boxing to do that, but it really helped is that word boundary, I never really practice boundaries. And if you're going to do a heavy topic, such as sexual abuse, sexual misconduct, which is confronting it, and part of what I do what I think the overall goal, I join in a larger voice and allies of other advocates and attorneys, I join in with them because they're seeking to we are seeking to dismantle I use that word dismantle and disrupt structures that have harmed people. And sex has been used in sexual misconduct as a tool for violence. It's been used as a tool to humiliate and control.

And so I'm a part of that and I can't really be a part of that, unless I myself have set really strong boundaries and how to protect myself because this work will bleed into your life. It'll bleed into your mind. And so part of that is setting really strict boundaries now with myself and what does that look like. It could mean, you know, having to evaluate a case. And now knowing that I can't, with the skill set that I'm going to employ, I can't help this person. Now yes, I am in a position to help philanthropically in some ways. But my tools as a litigator, may not be able to help. So that's a boundary and one that I didn't have, as a young attorney, I would take these cases home with me and just crying and you know, and you energy is down, you're not able to be there for friends or have fun, and you start developing, you know, stress related illnesses, which I did, because I really am a very empathetic, and that's also what makes me a very good litigator. But I had to realize that I had to have boundaries. So that's part of my practice now, having boundaries and it's also professionally and also personally, had zero boundaries with family and that's not their fault. It's my fault, because I thought that boundaries were a joke, and I didn't really understand them. Now I have boundaries with my kids, which is unbelievably necessary. And it could be your kids. It could be your spouse, it could be friends.

Analiza: So really appreciate that, Judy, let's do some lightning round. Ready?

Judie: Yes.

Analiza: Okay. Chocolate or vanilla.

Judie: Vanilla.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Judie: From to table takeout.

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Judie: Definitely climb a mountain.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Judie: Never. In fact, I have on my running shoes now with no socks and can't stand socks.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of one to 10 10 being Mariah Carey?

Judie: Oh, five.

Analiza: What's the recent book you read?

Judie: I always have a lot of books in my rotation. I am just a huge audible listener to books. So I just finished Gloria Steinem, My Life on the road. And also in that rotation I just picked up and this is not a hopeless self promotion. I'm getting ready to teach a class or elect a guest lecturer at NYU. So warm I just picked this up last night, a war on my body wearing my rights, which I co authored with some Gloria Steinem and Paxton Smith.

Analiza: Wow. What is your favorite way to practice self care?

Judie: Boundaries, setting those boundaries, knowing saying no, for saying no, inside, and then now replicating that and saying no to the person or the thing?

Analiza: What is a good professional development you've done?

Judie: Professional coach, executive coach, get a coach you live, we all live in our own fish bowls. And someone that can see your cycles and your patterns and point them out to you. Get a coach and ask lots of questions.

Analiza: That's great. I also want to shout out to Evolve Me and the participant program. Can you just quickly say what it did for you?

Judie: Oh, I love Judy and Linda. And Evolve Me, they helped define you know, what I really think Evolve Me, it gets you to ask those questions that you're running away from. They are supportive. You don't feel alone, you don't feel you know, you can be a little discombobulated as you start to rev up and come back to your career. And they really help put things in a systematized things and make it real and make it grounded. They have great ideas. Great support.

Analiza: What's your definition of a Boss Mama?

Judie: She says no. And a boss Mama says no. And you may be shaking inside but you don't let it see it. Because you mean it you really mean it?

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Judie: That's so many things. Hire as much help as you can afford? As much as you can afford to hire it?

Analiza: And then where can we find you, Judy, like LinkedIn or anywhere else?

Judie: Yes, please go to LinkedIn to connect with me. I love LinkedIn, the firm website ASK LLP, I'm there.

Analiza: And then last question, do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts to share?

Judie: Do not let this spring go by without literally I don't mean figuratively stopping to smell the roses. It's so important. There's been some recent deaths in my family and it's just shaken me and said that this is just not forever. So definitely stop and smell the flowers.

Analiza: Judy, it's been wonderful. Thank you so much for the stories and the wisdom.

Judie: Thank you so much.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time today to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, If you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, please share with someone else. You can share the link and posts on Facebook and say, Check it out. Lastly, I want to thank you for being a listener and you can go to get a free self care bonus called juice your joy at analizawolf.com/freebonus. Thank you so much