Analiza: Hi, I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Asian American mama of two kiddos. I went from being a burned out mama to being a Boss Mama, being a boss at work home and playing. I'm on a mission to help more women be Boss Mamas. If you want to thrive at work without sacrificing family or self care, you're in the right place. I'm launching my next cohort of women leaders starting in January. The online course is eight weeks and has helped achieving women get the balanced joy and fulfillment they deserve. Go to analizawolf.com/bossmamas to learn more. Now, let's get into today's show!

The cycle of achievement. How can a Boss Mama break that cycle? Today we're talking with Kristen Howard. She's an African American and single mom to three boys. Kristen shares her journey to being a boss, Mama. She went to Howard University and then Georgetown for a law degree. And then did a corporate career followed by being the Chief of Staff of Detroit Public Schools. In so many ways Kristen was on top of her game, big job salary, a lot of meaningful impact. And then two boys pregnant with her third. But that's when life came to a screeching halt. Kristen found herself experiencing a painful breakdown. In Boss Mamas we talk about how these breakdowns often lead to breakthroughs, and that we need to trust and listen. Kristen shares how she started to trust and listen to the universe, and what lessons she was meant to learn. It sounds so Whoo. Kristen shares how she started to lean into that Woo. And what she learned as well as the specific steps she took to be able to stop that cycle of achieving having to look outside for validation. And instead, look inside. I'm really excited for you to meet this Boss Mama. Kristen, so exciting to be with you. I want to start off our conversation about learning about young Kristen, baby Kristen, What did you dream of being when you got older.

Kristen: So I always thought I would be a lawyer mostly because I was very loud, very demanding and very argumentative. And so everyone told me you should be a lawyer. So I think that played out in life in school. Starting in third grade, my teacher was like, you can't even sit with the rest of the class, you talk entirely too much. And so she put me in a little room, which is probably not appropriate by modern educational standards, and a little room in the back off to the side so that I would not distract the other students and I was always finishing my work first too. So I'd be done. And I'd be chatting people up, sitting in the back corner. And I was like, one day, it'd be great. And I'm not gonna sit in this back corner. So that was my motivation right away like you, you're gonna use this talking for something, we're gonna prove people wrong when we have to.

Analiza: Oh my gosh, I love that prediction that you're gonna go off to do big things. You went off then to Kristen being this great student who got good grades. You went off to Harvard and Georgetown for law school. And tell me about how you got the big life, you got the corporate job? What was that like?

Kristen: Yes and so after school, I started at a law firm. And my decision to come to a law firm was really because it was shiny. I thought at first I'm gonna be a civil rights lawyer. I'm gonna fight for the people. But then I found out that there were these very smart, very challenging, very highly paid corporate lawyers, and I wanted to be fancy like them, and I wanted to make money. And so I got into this pool, I got into a law firm. And it is pretty miserable. Actually, there is a lot of money. But there's also a lot of work. Surprisingly, law firms are not the most diverse places, and they are not celebrating the diversity of women and women of color all the time. I know that they are consistently trying to be better. But that is not what they're known for. They're known for making money. And my law firm was very good at making money. So I'm here and making money and being big time, but it is also not the best situation in many ways.

Analiza: Wow. I can imagine you wearing the outfits and having a big deal. Oh, yes, the big salary, and how was it then at home? Like what was the whole situation personally looking like?

Kristen: It was like, You didn't even have a real home like we were working so much. I mean, it’s out of control. And so you're trying to do you're trying to sneak that in, you see a lot of women who are very successful in the field, especially women of color, who never did it, if you look at the Supreme Court, you know, the most recent appointees who are younger, who are women, were not married, right? That just was not a part of their journey. Because to make it in this environment, it can be challenging to balance all of the things, and I know some amazing women who are doing it all, but it can be tough. So I'm overworked. I'm overstressed. I'm not necessarily feeling very affirmed in myself. And you know, I'm dating a guy who is questionable, everyone hates him. True story, everybody hates him, we break up officially. But you know, sometimes still hanging out in the adult way. And so boom, I'm pregnant. That's what happened accidentally. So that was my personal life. So I've now framed it against the law firm, not married. It's fascinating.

Analiza: Oh, my gosh, Kristen. So in many ways from the outside, you're winning. And yet there's inside this? I mean, literally, the baby.

Kristen: There is something coming. And I managed to hide it actually, for 20 weeks, because you're right, it's so much of self was based in it right? Like you're a high powered lawyer, you're fancy. We're going to fancy parties flying all over the world, like having fun, live parties. Good days, not mad about it. But I mean, it was crazy. We worked all day, partied all day. It's just not a lot of balance. And then I am pregnant. And I'm like, This is not you know, I was raised in a small town in Michigan, fairly conservatively. Is this what I want for my child? Do I want to deal with this kind of sketchy guy, this is not what I want. So I decided to hit the brakes, and have a change of lifestyle. And so I said, let's go back to Michigan, and reset and figure out what is going to be the next chapter.

Analiza: Cool. So you make a big break. I mean, now you're living in your home state, as you're trying to figure out the next step. You have this baby, and it hasn't come yet. So what do you do then?

Kristen: Well, the baby does come. He is very handsome and amazing. But at the same time, I am now like you said, I'm living in a small town in Michigan, in my parents house with a tiny baby and trying to, you know, look for jobs. I'm still committed to going back to DC at this time, and things don't work out. But I was like, let me look for jobs here to see if that's possible. And so eventually, I do end up finding a job in Michigan and resigning from my position in DC. But it's very different. I'm a bankruptcy lawyer by trade. Corporate bankruptcies are primarily east coast, Chicago, LA. This practice doesn't really exist in Detroit. And so I have to decide who I'm going to be in at this moment. Like, it's time for me to figure out what's next. And so, in that time, actually, I got a job in a small law firm, I took really good care of my baby. And myself, that was my whole focus, I lost the baby weight, I got some muscles more than I've ever had before. I was paleo. I was making everything from scratch. It was kind of a wonderful time, in many ways. But I didn't realize it. Honestly, I didn't realize it. I just felt like I wasn't the person that I was, I didn't have that life anymore. And I didn't have to be single. And you know, as a woman, you're always kind of judging yourself or many of us by whether or not you have a partner. And a lot of times you feel like others are judging you by that standard, too. And so, of course, the easiest thing to do is to just find a partner, so get into another relationship. And that helps.

Analiza: I mean, what kind of guy was this?

Kristen: Kind of random, I'm not gonna be a hater, because I live in Michigan and shout out to everyone here. But the dating pool is not exactly rich. So the guy works at a middle school, you know, as a staff member, not even a teacher and I'm happy. I'm like, You know what, this is my new life. Really simple. And so he meets me in this simple life mode. We're just like, we don't care about our job. We're coming home every day, we're working out or with the baby. I'm hanging out with him. He's introducing me to life. I'm not telling him about all the life that I've lived prior to coming here because why would you do that? So I'm just leaning into the simple life scenario. That's what's happening. We're making it work.

Analiza: So I can imagine you're living Fast and Furious in DC. And then you come home and you're living at home and you meet this man who's lovely, but not quite the DC kind of pool you're used to. And you’ve got your baby and you're in shape. You're looking hot. So now what I mean seems pretty good. Are you happy?

Kristen: You know, so this is the first round. And I'm like, is there a way you will first get good news, I'm not a terrible person. So my first instinct was like, I want to get out of corporate law permanently. Like, it is not healthy. This was a bad choice first in the first place. So how do we get out of here? What's a better place? My stepmother is an educator, and she was telling me about some of the things that were going on in the education landscape. And I was like, I think I could be more helpful than some of the things I'm hearing. And so I'm pursuing any opportunity that comes through an education. And luckily, a lot of factors. It's a story for another day, fall into alignment. And I end up still with the guy married now, and working as the Chief of Staff for the largest school district in Michigan, in the city of Detroit. So now I've decided to kind of get back into it. But let's see if I can emulate a little bit more of my life and bring a little bit more of the excitement among students in Michigan like.

Analiza: I can feel the excitement, right, you're now at this big job. And there's a lot going on in Detroit Public Schools, there's a ton of turnaround in your working time. So how is that showing up in your relationship? How's that showing up in your family, partner's, all the things?

Kristen: You know, so it was not showing up in the best way. I think I'm just, I'm a hard worker. And you know, one of the things that I think any or all of us can get caught doing is leaning into the things that we know, the things that we feel like we're good at, the things that we get affirmation from the things that people tell us we're good at, right? The reason I became a lawyer in the first place was because people told me I was good at law. And truly, if I would have explored more, I would have gotten an MBA, because I never wanted to be a lawyer, actually, I want to be an executive. But I was just like, what people think I'm good at, that's what I should do, and be good at that. And so I'm throwing myself into work, because that's what I'm good at. And everyone is responding positively to that. And I'm letting my husband and the kids do whatever they're doing. I'm not always there, but I love them. And I'm bringing in my check. So that should be enough. And as many would know, out there, that is not always enough to sustain a marriage and a relationship. So things are getting rough, and a little bumpy. And then we run into panic, things go from a little rough, to explosively rough. And also I became pregnant again. And you remember the last pregnancy, we're back in a stressful pregnancy situation. So the relationship is shaky. I'm pregnant. And you know, I love my kids, my son got a son through marriage too. So I love my two boys. And for me, children are paramount, and I was pregnant again. And I'm like, this relationship is not going to be the best place for this new baby to thrive. So I decided, okay, let's just walk away. That was my decision.

Analiza: Wow. I mean, your story is like several stories, and even untold stories inside. So you're now in a walkaway situation, you decide you're better than this. And your boys decide that you want better for your boys. So what happens next?

Kristen: So as I mentioned, I came back to Michigan, I live with my parents. And after that for a little bit, I actually bought my own home. And I decided to do it in partnership with my sister and her family. And so they were helping me with my son, and we were living together. And it was a great opportunity. And so when I moved out, I moved into my husband's house to get married. They stayed and so they were still there. And so I asked them, you know, can I come back? Like can we make this work again, and they were so gracious. So I showed up six months pregnant on the doorstep, kids in tow. And, you know, this is not far, but in Arbor to Detroit. And so I decided to really just make a clean break. Let's change our job. Let's change our entire lifestyle. Let's turn toward Arbor and kind of get a fresh start, because that was my Detroit life working in the school district and being in that relationship. And let's move west a little bit. And so I started looking for a new job. So I'm kind of back oddly similar in the same position and pregnant and looking for a job but I got to the state thing. And so the largest employer in this area is the University of Michigan and obviously they have a wonderful reputation. There was a posting and it was widely applied to a posting on the website for the Senior Director of Health Equity and Inclusion at University of Michigan. And I'm black, I'm interviewing, baby life comes at me even faster. I've got to get into it. It's another story but life decides to come up even faster. And I got the job. So here we go.

Analiza: So Kristen, I'm just going through the cycles here right you're young Kristen and have these big dreams. You accomplish this big dreams, you meet a guy who's not quite the right one pregnant, you then come back home reevaluate, and then you're back to this high fly lifestyle and then you get nicely brought back to the universe is talking about. So now that you're in the juncture, and you've been in Ann Arbor for a good amount of months now, how is this new life unfolding? What are you seeing? What do you think the universe is helping you to learn?

Kristen: Yeah, I mean, it's funny because this is addressing to talk about the cycles, I will say, this is gonna be a little off script, I, there was an opportunity, when I was waiting on this job, there was an opportunity to go into a fortune 500 company that needed a Chief Compliance Officer. And they said, you know, you're a perfect fit, we can pay you twice as much money as the university, do you want to come and like, be very, very shiny. And I think I finally picked up what the universe was trying to put down. And I was like, you know, what, I need a little space to focus on what's real, to focus on myself, to focus on my children, to build a life that's not just completely consumed by a job that I'm good at. I mean, the company was amazing. They were treating me really well in the interview process. But like, I was literally so bored in the interviews that I could barely answer the questions, but it's a combined position. But because it's a big part of your company, because it's a senior level position. I'm doing these interviews, and seriously considering there's a lot of money taking a job that I have absolutely no interest in, that I can barely even stay awake during an interview for, because it looks really shiny, and it's the right thing to do, and is the right thing to do. And so, at this juncture, I think the universe is just trying to remind me of what is most important, right? Who are you truly, who like, despite all these ups and downs, from career to career to career, what has remained most important? What is the constant, what sustains you, what beads you, what helps you to feel like you're growing and not shrinking other than work? Because work can change? You know, you'll out there's always another job, there's always another field, there's always another work opportunity, but what else? Who are you outside of the office?

Analiza: It's beautiful. And to turn away the shiny ,the shiny job with a shiny salary. I mean, that's hard. And it's a real testament to making a decision and choosing you. And listening to perhaps what the universe is trying to teach us. And that, I mean, Kristen, I find that that's not like a one time decision. It's like the tested and universals like, Did you remember the lesson, you and I have been chatting about, you know, your faith and just how much you really lean into your community and serving and you just were leading this three day, I mean, tell us about this amazing event that you you led.

Kristen: As much as a wonderful team, lots of volunteers, lots of people involved. But you know, it's hard to break that cycle of who you are trained to be. And like, I have been trained to be an achiever. And I've been trained to find value in myself in my achievements. And so everywhere I go, if I want to feel valuable, I'm going to show you how I can achieve right, no matter where it is. So even at church, I'm like, Yes, I will run this event for you, we have an anniversary, let's do all these things. Even though I have a 10 month old at home, even though I'm starting a new job, even though I'm a single mom, I now have multiple children. Let me also like, go overboard and run a huge event at church. And that was a huge success. Lots of community members, lots of beautiful pictures. Everyone loved it. But afterwards, like, not even afterwards, in the event, while it's being wildly successful. I'm sitting here like, I hate, I hate everything to everyone. Why am I here? I am exhausted. I was at church on Friday for 30 hours. I was like, why is this even happening to me? Like, what have I done? And so I actually talked to you, I think, you know, the day before, and I was like, that's crazy. You just quit when you're good at things. And everyone relies on you and your fourth or something. And what is really most interesting, as I said, you know, I was like, I am adequate. And I did it. And when I told my pastor, he was like, You know what, I was actually a little shocked that you were doing all of this, like, I thought you might need more time for your family and more space. He's like that, so no problem at all. I fully support you, and support the things that you're saying are so important. There's no problem, do what you need to do for you and your family. And it was really meaningful because I realized, like, I was almost tearing up and I was like, I'm gonna have to step back from leadership roles a little bit. Because I'm so used to people only valuing or feeling like they're only valuing me for those achievements. So to say, I'm not going to do that is like, am I still going to matter to you? Are you still going to care? And so it was really affirming to hear him say, oh, yeah, I mean, we're still family, like, we're literally we're still family, come back when you're ready, or, you know, it's like, I might even go to a church that was 20,000 miles, I'm just happy you got, like, so cool about it, he's a great pastor. So it's figuring out the spaces where you fit to, where the achievement is not the central driving force of connection, right? Like, if the only thing that's holding it together that's holding a relationship together, that makes someone care about you, is that you are achieving these things, has to be a red flag in and of itself, right? Like, I'm so much more than my achievements, I'm so much more than a job, because those are things that can be lost. So what I'm really working on now is phase two therapy that they believe is therapy, through therapy is like, how do I continue to affirm the person inside and be confident and whole and achieve just inner peace? Like, how am I just happy and Okay with being me in whatever space of men and bringing value to just like, be a good mom, taking care of myself, how do I do that well.

Analiza: So good. I just want to reiterate this point you made that it's about you without the achievement, that you don't have to be a doing person, it's just that you're being and that's enough. And that's actually more than enough. And the people that truly love us will get that. Because if you're having to earn their love, not sure that that's the right person in your community. So it's so beautiful, your pastor's response and even your own acceptance. And I know that there's also little ones watching you. So can you talk about that?

Kristen: It's scary, they see everything. So you know, my oldest son, he's seven. Now he is very much like me, in a lot of ways. He's a born competitor, a fierce competitor. And, you know, from an early age, if you asked him, like, what does it mean to work when he was like one or two, give me like, I'm working, right? Like, that's what he's like, just typing vigorously. He thinks that's all for kids. I was like, You are a very fortunate kiddo. But, you know, one day, he came to me thinking he was gonna make me proud. And he says, when I'm an adult, all I'm going to do is work I'm not going to do you want to work hard, every single day, just like you and I'm like, I want for your life, I don't want your whole life to be centered around working and going to it's like, that's not an achievement, right? Like, not going to be a great person, not going to change the world, I'm just going to work. And so in that, you know, I've been sharing more both of the school district and even now working in our work in equity at the university is like, what is meaningful about people in communities and connections, whatever you're doing, whatever you're centered on whatever the work is, you're going to take that in, right? If your work is about people and community, you're going to take that in. So it's so important to me to like, set an example of wholeness, and really wholeness and authenticity, and of being true to yourself in your column.

Analiza: A model of authenticity and self love and all those things and being true to yourself. That's beautiful. And I also just want to say your point, Kristen, about you, wanting for him not to be like the achiever and the hard worker, but actually just to be kind and change the world in some way and to love themselves. It's so beautiful, and you're making that move, right? Interrupting that pattern. It's no longer hopefully going to be this roller coaster. But when you start to see them here.

Kristen: That's the secret sauce. Just don't have another baby. It'll be fine. But you're right. I think you said it in your school, right? It's not that the temptation will not come back. Like even at the university, there are 60,000 jobs here, right? Even if I stayed here, they tell you that's part of the beauty of being here. There's always an opportunity. Right? There's got to be another opportunity even here, I'm sure at some point to look at and decide. Is this the best opportunity for your whole life? Not just your work life, not just your resume. What is best for your whole life.

Analiza: That's awesome. I love it. Love it. Love it. So we're gonna move on to lightning round questions. Alright, chocolate or vanilla?

Kristen: Chocolate.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Kristen: Cooking. If you give me the time to cook, I would prefer to cook

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Kristen: Up and out? I don't like what I don't want to have about, there's no way I'm gonna have to choose. I'm gonna climb this mountain but no, I won't hike. I'm definitely afraid of heights, every board.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Kristen: Like athletic sandals like before a basketball game? I used to like playing basketball. So yes, those kinds of sandals.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of one to 10-10 being Mariah Carey?

Kristen: Thirty seven (37).

Analiza: Recent book you read?

Kristen: Someone wouldn't need to understand the world of romance novels, because they were trying to write a romance novel. So I read a romance novel, A gangster mafia, interracial romance. And if you don't know this, romance novels are super specific by genre. Like you can literally pick mafia, interracial romance not like that's how specific they get. So, I did that. That was the most recent book.

Analiza: What's your favorite way to practice self care?

Kristen: To get outdoors, I think it takes time and summers ending here in Michigan, but being outdoors, especially without my children, or like if they're in a jungle gym, maybe without the baby, just like bring no computer, no laptop, put my phone down for a minute. Look at the sky, feel the grass? I'm strangely, although very corporate, very crunchy, like barefoot, like, like, feel the grass, feel the earth.That's it.

Analiza: And since you did the boss model of the program with me, what did you get out of it?

Kristen: First of all, I got you, you started calling me and stuff. And that's the best part. But I think you know, it's really beautiful to see other women who are trying and who are feeling sometimes, right. So it's not that we are all immediately successful in this work. But it's good to know that people are trying, they're willing to be in community and try to hear the stories to meet the women to learn the tips and tools to just try a little bit of applying them. It's just a good opportunity to reflect. And I think a lot of times it's busy Boss Mama's you do not take the time to reflect and even ask yourself the questions. So that's really the best part, just taking a moment to reflect by asking yourself the questions while doing it in a supportive community. It makes a program really valuable.

Analiza: And what's your definition of a Boss Mama?

Kristen: Ah, a woman who is walking in her truth, loving her children and enjoying the ride.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Kristen: So many things, get an MBA, that would be one thing. Stay in therapy consistently and try to work through your childhood issues faster. Don't have children by guys that are somewhat questionable and be more vulnerable. Be like that is the true part of all this is like, really, really learn how to open up. And that's the hardest part, like learning how to find your truth so that you're not using something else to create your truth, like achievement. Learn how to know yourself, be open yourself and open that true self up to others so that you can get that affirmation from who you really are and not the move you're pretending to be.

Analiza: And then where can we find you like LinkedIn or any of those?

Kristen: Yeah, you can find me on Twitter at Kristen_esq, Instagram @allkristen, LinkedIn, Kristen Howard. I'm over. I'm all around. All my pages are open. I'm an open book. So come hang out with me with pictures all the time.

Analiza: And you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts for the audience?

Kristen: I don't think so. Just have a good time. I mean, I think, you know, one of the things I've done I mentioned, I've had a lot of loss in life, like it's part of this journey. And most recently in February I lost my sister. So if you are living your life for someone else, if you are living your life because of expectations, you think you have to, you simply don't like it because tomorrow could be taken away from any of us. Another pandemic ahead, the world could be shut down. We've seen some crazy things in our own lifetime. You have to live it. You only have this, my life is precious. Live into it.

Analiza: Amazing. Thank you so much Kristin for sharing and being vulnerable and being a model for us about what it takes to share the stories even the hard ones. Really appreciate you.

Kristen: Thank you for having me.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time today to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, please share it with someone else. You can share the link and posts on Facebook and say check it out. Lastly, I want to thank you for being a listener and you didn't go to get a free self care bonus called juice your joy at analizawolf.com/freebonus. Thank you so much