Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise Podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipina American mom of two, and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the US Air Force. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. We'll be talking with successful CEOs and C suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys. If you're a woman or woman of color who wants a seat at the table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I'm excited to be talking with Jenise Terrell today. She is the Public Allies CEO. And she actually began her journey at Public Allies as an AmeriCorps member herself in 1997 20 years, more than 20 years at this organization. What a career! Her mission is to help all young people have the opportunity to realize their full potential. She's created innovative programs at Public Allies like DREAMCorps, which is the first national service program to engage DREAMers in national service. She is a Milwaukeean, I'm just thrilled to be talking with her. We're going to learn so much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jenise, for being here.

Jenise: Thank you for having me. I've been looking forward to our conversation.

Analiza: So Jenise, I want to talk about this career, because you have been at Public Allies for such a long time. Was that part of the plan when you were young? You're like, I want to do this. This is my vision. Two decades and more.

Jenise: No, not at all. It was never the plan to be frank with you. My undergrad degree was in Management Information System. So it was in business management. And so early on, I thought I wanted to pursue a career in technology. But I had this calling, it was more like a pulling, not a calling. It was a pulling. I was really deeply pulled to community and to my community and be of service to my community. I wanted to take these really what I saw as applicable skill sets that I had been gifted and the knowledge that I hold in school and really apply it to my community.

But the nonprofit sector, if we can be frank, operated very much like the private sector to get a break to get a leg in. You had to know people. And I didn't know anyone. I had my degree. I had my ambition. I had goals. I had insights, and I had passion. But I didn't know anyone. And oftentimes, young people like me who have ambition, who have tenacity, who have familiarity, deep familiarity, because of where we come from, with the very issues that the nonprofit sector is seeking to address. Don't often don't have an entry point to the sector. And so Public Allies was my entry point. It was the program who saw beyond who we were, what degrees we held, or in many cases, the degrees that we did not get hold, but saw into our again, ambition, our drive, our desire to be of service, and gave us the opportunity to hone our leadership skills and a platform to exercise leadership.

And so when I stepped into the doors and participated in my 10 month apprenticeship and Public Allies, I found my tribe, I found people who were not like me in terms of background in terms of socioeconomic status or race or gender or sexual orientation. What I found was a group of people who commonly believed in the power that we each held to build something together for the future of my city and for the future of our country.

Analiza: It speaks to Jenise how the universe sounds like it spoke to you pretty early, that this was the place where you would get your entry point but also a huge impact, very values aligned, and giving you the training and confidence to be yourself. And now at this top role, I'm curious, because the idea of entry points as women of color is something that I don't think is talked about, how do you get your first gig, right? Like, it's always talking about the technical, here's how to present or here's how to negotiate, but actually, getting the first in is a real obstacle to even having the impact that we want to have. How are you gonna place a bet when you don't even know the people? And so I'm curious, Jenise, for you, when you've thought about your career, what were the myths that you might have believed early on that now having a couple of decades under your belt of real work experience, and actually supporting other young people to have the impact to be leaders in their communities as well? What are those myths that you realize now actually, those are not true?

Jenise: It's interesting. There's something that I was recently shared with me when I asked another leader of a philanthropy what advice they had for me stepping into role as a new CEO, and they shared, what got you to this point, is not what will sustain you. So the role this role leading in this way, requires the evolution of a different type of skill set. And so that was a wake up call, I have to be very honest, because for so much of my career, my ability to move forward was largely based upon my ability to see, to assess, to understand innately, what had to happen and to move things forward. I took a lot of work on I knew and understood, first and foremost, because I saw this operate in my mother's life, know your business, inside and out, I always made it in whichever position I was serving my first order of business, to learn everything that I needed to know about how it needed to happen. In some cases, that meant diving in deep on regulatory matters. But leading an organization through change, and through into new territory is not based on knowledge. It's based on faith. It's based on instinct and vision. And it's informed by knowledge. And it's informed by the vision and the insight, you have to have a deep listening ear. But it's not about your ability to do all the things. It's about your ability to inspire, and to bring together and so deep, like knowing all the things is actually not beneficial. Being able to do all the things well is not necessarily beneficial. When you get to this capacity, your ability to inspire and help others know what they should be mastering, help others implement and to do is what it takes to lead in these kinds of roles. And that's a shift that, frankly, women of color, I don't think are fostered enough.

What the world is used to doing is picking up and holding, not just our piece of the pie, but everyone else is as well, right? We're the backbones, for so much we move so much we take so much on we are committed and dedicated to proving our competence, demonstrating our competence and the world that we've got to be able to lay that down. When we move into leadership.

Analiza: I'm going to talk about this Jenise as women of color, because we got to the positions we have, because we were so good at holding pieces and doing often other people's pieces and making sure that we were competent, and doing twice the work working twice as hard. And so this movement to I mean, I love it, I wrote it down, that you're now trusting your instinct, and trusting in general. I mean, vision like that is a shift that's often we don't hear and how do you actually even move from doing being using my brain? Knowing all the things to now I'm going to release and be a person who runs on trust and letting go and inspiring. I'm curious for you, was there a moment there? Besides the advice that you got from this woman? Or person? I'm curious, was there an experience that you had where you had to, you're like, I really want to do it. And now I'm going to have to trust or that kind of leaning into instinct. Instinct is not trainable, right. I can't just be like, Okay, listen to this PowerPoint, read this PowerPoint, you're good. It's like an experience. So I'm curious if anything's coming to mind for you.

Jenise: I'm grateful for me personally, to have a great coach, as a phenomenal coach, who is lifting this up and waving the flag for me all the time. Why are you doing that, I also have a phenomenal leadership team, I have a group of phenomenal women on the leadership team who are honest and reflective both back to me, and push me as a leader to lean in to be clear about boundaries, and they want me to set boundaries, because that allows them to set it is an indication that setting boundaries is okay. And so we don't get to practice new skill sets, because instantaneously, it is a practice. And it is a practice that we do in partnership with the people around us who support us.

Analiza: So beautiful. And also, the shift to being a leader, especially of a large organization is that you can't do it all alone. And in fact, the success of your leadership depends on how much you lean on your team. And whether you can be you can actually make mistakes or not do things and hit it out the park, you can actually have a team to reflect back and say, Hey, here's ways we can up our game. Here's ways in which you can help model for us. So what a beautiful team you have and how lucky you have that there was a moment in your career where you've experienced, like a rock bottom, that's why I call it a tough moment. It really taught you about being the leader you needed to be or got clarity on how you want to show up.

Jenise: I think the reason I was so innately drawn to Public Allies, is because I actually saw it operate in my life early on when I was a child, the values the benefit of leading from the very values premise that we invite our young people to practice. I am the daughter of a phenomenal woman and leader in her own right. She raised my sister and I largely on her own, and began her career as an early childhood education teacher. So she was she taught daycare. And similar to the crisis we have in early childhood education. Now, early childhood education teachers are undervalued, significantly undervalued and underpaid in terms of so she was raising us, putting us making sure that she prioritized our education, she sent us to a phenomenal Central City Catholic schools here in Milwaukee. And she worked hard. I saw her master talk about demonstrating mastery and competence in your work. Every night I saw her pour over her work, and so that she was prepared to lead the childcare center that she was working in when I was younger. I also saw her put education first, my mother didn't receive or start her bachelor's degree until I was in the midst of my own bachelor's degree, largely because she put our education for and she made some sacrifices for herself so that she could put us ahead, but I do remember her taking classes for her Associate's degree. And I remember that there were times where she didn't have a sitter for and so I would tag along with her to her classes. And I was very quietly her instructor would allow me to sit very quietly in the back of the classroom with my crayons and my paper while she took her class.

And it was phenomenal and phenomenal for a myriad of reasons. But in this case, it was phenomenal because she saw in my mother, the promise of who she was and decided that technical rule would not define or determine whether or not she could finish her degree. There were allowances that were made, so that she could earn that initial degree herself and to continue on her path to leadership. And I saw a myriad of women in my mother's life do similar things. I saw women who said, you don't yet have a bachelor's degree. And this requires it but you are, well, you are far more than qualified for this. So let's have a conversation.

She's led in ways that she should not have been able to lead if traditional norms of defining who is prepared and who is qualified to lead, we're allowed to rule over so when Public Allies invited me in, to participate in a program that said, we're not looking for diamonds, we're looking for diamonds in the rough. This program is about giving those who have been overlooked because they don't fit the traditional definition of leader.

When I heard that, I knew that it spoke to me in a way that was very deeply personal, because I had experienced the truth of what they were saying. I saw it operate in my mother's life. And because it operated to her and it helped her move forward. It allowed me to experience things in life that I would not have been able to experience had she not been seen in the ways that people chose to see into her and provide her opportunity. So my mission, my belief about what leadership looks like, was informed leadership looks like seeing into people seeing into the capacities that they have, and looks beyond what is traditional, and truly sees folks for what they have to offer, and gives them an opportunity to demonstrate that.

Analiza: What a beautiful story, and how amazing it is that your mother who raised your sister, and you pursued her degree, despite the odds, and also had angels along the way, that we're all helping each other in community. And I know you really believe in the community to be seen that she's a diamond. And that no, she didn't fit the typical stereotype of what a diamond is. But she is a diamond and you are a diamond and women of color. There's diamonds here that were often overlooked. But there's angels and opportunities and Public Allies that provide doors, and that our voice matters,

Jenise: Absolutely, and that it's incumbent upon those of us who hold positions of leadership, to continue to widen the doors of opportunity to leverage the spaces that we occupy, to ensure that we're not the last ones to walk through those doors. That's pivotal. And everyone who was an actor and agent in my mother's life, in the ways that I've described was a woman, I think it's important and most of them women of color, black women explicitly. So I think it's important to lift that up. And notice that, that it is the shepherding it's the way women see each other, and shepherd each other and support each other. That is, frankly, is the reason that I sit here today.

Analiza: This shepherding we have to name because often we think of me as an isolation taking a role. But we stand for so much more that when you Jenise take the CEO role, you're taking the role for all of us, and you're helping to give a new image when you talk to those philanthropy or venture capital firms. They see you at that top seat. And it allows changes in perception that are antiquated to leadership and looks more inclusive, and you can get stellar results, even more stellar results with someone with a diverse background, the diamond in the rough. I want to talk about Jenise, this concept of conversations because getting the role that you've had and the career path that you your mother that we've had. And I want to talk about how that sometimes means having hard conversations and being honest about when we're triggered or when we're not triggered. And you had mentioned before we talked that there's a piece of us, when we're having a conversation, that's hard that can be if we're conscious of it, we can really be aware about what the conversation is about. And so let me just give you that as an opening because I thought it was so powerful. And we often don't talk about what it really means like what's the conversation, what's really going on in our bodies and our minds and so what that, can you share your thoughts on hard conversations?

Jenise: It's important to practice some mindfulness and say, Okay, what am I experiencing right now? Where am I? What is this about? And how is this? Why is this triggering to me? Like, what about me has been offended? What about how I see myself has been offended? And to sit with that. And to be clear about whether we have the power to determine how we respond? Is that injury real? Like, is it really called, calling my integrity? into question? Is my competence really being called into question? Are my values being called into question? Or is it possible that this is about like, that the locus of this sits outside of my experience, and how I understand myself and be or, frankly, is this information that I need to take in about despite how I intend to show up how I'm really impacting in interfacing in the world, I have a 10 year old daughter, and I absolutely love how much of a mirror she is to me. First of all, she is 10 years old, soon to be 11. She is a more fiery version or iteration of her mama and I absolutely love it. Every day, she invites me. She's so hilarious. Like, she'll tell me she's like, so this is what I heard you say? Is that what you meant? Like? Is that how you meant to come across? Like she will offer me in real time feedback? And I have to say, okay, like, all right, let me correct but she's so clear about her boundaries and her authority in her life. And it makes me, first of all, very proud. Second of all, it makes me get really clear about the gulf between my intent and my impact. And the clothes and the work the clothes that go into are intentional with how I choose to express myself and be mindful about how my interior conversation is showing up externally, even sometimes when I don't want to, when I don't choose for it to. So yes, she's a phenomenal leader. And I can't wait until she's on a show like this one day, because I see it in her future.

Analiza: A fiery version of you. And I love that at 10. She's like, Mama, here's what you say. And here's how I took that. That's like a whole professional development course that we're trying to learn about how to stay conscious, and not make assumptions and actually hold up to the other person with love, but also clarity. Here's what I'm hearing, here's how it's landing. Let's get clear. I'm like, I'm still working on that.

Jenise: Oh, her degree of self awareness is something like I don't know that she understands how self aware and self possessed she is. But I marvel at how she is coming into her own and so proud.

Analiza: Here, here, Jenise for being her mama, and she's learning from you. And also that she can be clear and unapologetic, that it's not. To be direct is not to be rude to be direct, and it's to be respectful. And to do it with love and care. So congrats on that with that. Jenise I wanted to move us to lightning round. Are you ready?

Jenise: Ready as I'll ever be.

Analiza: Okay, chocolate or vanilla.

Jenise: Oh, chocolate,

Analiza: Cooking or takeout

Jenise: In group and community cooking.

Analiza: Would you climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Jenise: Oh, climb the mountain.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with Sandals?

Jenise: Never. Be free feet, be free.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of one to 10 - 10 is Mariah Carey

Jenise: Oh, I'm a two, Dear.

Analiza: What's a recent book you read

Jenise: I recently did a deep dive into stories by I have a phenomenal storyteller named Donald Davis. His stories of his life growing up have been phenomenal. And he just tells really beautiful story. So Donald's book is storytelling. And then I'm also I'm transitioning from right now just finished, The Body Keeps The Score, and I'm transitioning into My Grandmother's Hands.

Analiza: Yes, Grandmother's Hands. So good.

Jenise: Yeah, that's what I'm transitioning into now. And then I've got a slew of work related books that I'm reading as well.

Analiza: Because they're intense books. I love them. And then what is your favorite way to practice self care?

Jenise: I think I treasure at this time I treasure my alone time. I treasure my ability to sit down and read a book to eat a lovely piece of chocolate on a walk. I treasure my ability to watch anything but I choose to without explanation or without argument. I really, my ability to be in solitude is a gift. Right now.

Analiza: Solitude is a gift for sure. What's a good professional development you've done?

Jenise: I was an American Express Leadership Fellow. Yeah. That was a phenomenal experience.

Analiza: What's your definition of a Boss Mama?

Jenise: Someone that's open to constantly growing and making mistake and being forgiving.

Analiza: So what advice would you give your younger self?

Jenise: Walk in your truth with your head held high.

Analiza: And then where can we find you like LinkedIn or anywhere else?

Jenise: LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram,

Analiza: _jeniseterrell

Jenise: _jeniseterrell

Analiza: Great. And then lastly, do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts?

Jenise: I think my ask of everyone listening to this would be to think about and give consideration to who you're seeing into who you choose to see and to today. Every day, we have the opportunity to open a door to give an opportunity, a chance to be heard to demonstrate capacity. So what choice are you going to make today?

Analiza: Thanks so much. Jenice, really appreciate your time and stories.

Jenise Terrell 27:33 Thank you. This has been fun. I appreciate you. And thank you for lifting up the stories of women of color who are looking to transform the world.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time today to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, please share with someone else you can share the link and posts on Facebook and say check it out. Lastly, I wanted to thank you for being a listener and you didn't go to get a free self care bonus called juice your joy at analizawolf.com/freebonus. Thank you so much.