Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise Podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipina American mom of two, and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the US Air Force. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. We'll be talking with successful CEOs and C suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys. If you're a woman or woman of color, who wants a seat at the table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I'm really happy to be talking with Tina Fernandez today. She's got a background in the legal and education sectors, and recently was the founding executive director of Achieve Atlanta, whose vision is for Atlanta to be a place where race and income no longer predicts success. Tina before this was a partner at Bellwether, which is a nonprofit providing strategic talent and policy consulting and there she led the talent readiness pilot and talent services for Bellwether. Tina also served as a clinical professor at University of Texas. She was a founding director of the school's pro bono program. She was actually the Clinical Professor of the Year for two years in 2012 and 2014. And before that, she was a litigation associate at Fulbright and Jaworski. Tina has done a ton of boards, including Bellwether, TNTP, Latinos for education. She's also a Pahara Aspen fellow and a moderator for Aspen. She got her JD from Columbia, and her BA from Harvard. She's originally from Texas, and also a mom, welcome. Welcome, Tina. Thanks so much for being here.

Tina: Thanks, Analiza, I'm so happy to be here.

Analiza: So Tina, you have quite a career. And I'm curious, can you share how your identity shaped your career choices?

Tina: Yeah. Oh, that's a good question. So my mother's from Mexico. She's an immigrant to the United States. My dad is from Texas, Mexican American, several generations in Texas, of Mexican descent. And I grew up in South Texas on the Texas Mexican border and a low income community. And, you know, like many immigrant parents are Latinx parents who have dreams for their kids, my parents had a lot of dreams for their kids, and especially my dad, my father was a school teacher, he was the first in his family to go to college. And education was a big, big value in our home. And so from the moment that I can remember, my dad, you know, I'm the firstborn, and my earliest memories are him telling me that I was going to go to Harvard, and that I was going to be a lawyer. And so like, setting very high expectations from day one. And obviously, that impacted my path. And, you know, I think that for a lot of us, those high expectations are a double edged sword, right. So they're great, because you know, their dreams and their expectations, and your parents want you to work towards them. And also, you know, there's the pressure of feeling like you're the person in the family that's going to go do these great things, and really wanting to live into that to honor our parents and our family members. So I think from a very early age, I felt like, what I was doing in my career wasn't just for me, but for a lot of other people. And it's been a journey.

And I think now that I'm in my 50s, I can really lean into the fact that what I do is a calling and a vocation for my life. But it took me a while to sort of get there and to kind of unravel, like, what were the expectations that were being placed on me and for me, and what were the things that I was being called to do myself, and I don't think it's ever like a clear cut journey. But I always felt called to help others, I felt very much aware of my own privilege and being able to get a great education. And especially when a lot of my peers weren't able to go to college and feeling like I wanted to give back. And I wanted to create opportunities so that there were more people who look like me and who came from backgrounds like mine operating in, you know, all the spaces that we want to inhabit, but still don't in this country.

Analiza: Tina, I can imagine you as a young girl and your dad was like Harvard, and lawyer. That's all I'm asking. So at some point, Tina, you pivoted. How did that happen? Was there an aha moment? Was there a you know what, now it's time to do my calling. Was there anything that really just woke you to that spirit?

Tina: Yeah, that's a really good one, question. So, you know, after I graduated from college, I did Teach for America. And I taught for two years in the South Bronx, I was a fourth and fifth grade bilingual teacher. And almost all of my kids were recent immigrants to the United States. And that was an amazing experience. Still the hardest job I've ever done in my life, I loved my kids. And I also was very aware of the like stunted opportunities that they were going to have just because of their place in society and their income status. And you know, all of the systems that we know work against, like making sure that everyone has opportunity. So I did that. And then I decided that I wanted to work on more systemic issues. And so I decided to go to law school. And when I went to law school, my sole intention was I was going to be a public interest lawyer, I was going to do social justice work, I was going to work with kids, I worked my first summer at Manhattan Legal Aid, doing juvenile rights work, and then did a lot of stuff during law school, working with low income communities. And then, you know, recruiting started, and all of these big law firms came to campus, and it was the 90s. And the legal market was booming. And I got several job offers. And I remember that the first summer that I went to work for a law firm, I made more that summer, than I made an entire year of teaching, which is again, like super problematic, right? But very real, like I had law school debt, I had just gotten married at the time, and you know, just like real financial concerns and thinking about my parents, etc. And so I went to a big firm, and I did the corporate job and did it for five years. And I learned a ton, I made a lot of friends, it was actually a really good training and education in terms of just like, my profession and working with clients.

But about five years in, I had had my kids by that point. And you know, you make some trade offs when you do that kind of work. And I wasn't seeing them very much. And I remember sitting in my office, thinking, this isn't what I was supposed to do. Like I was supposed to go and try to make the world better. And I was doing a good job and representing clients. But I didn't feel like I was making a difference for my community, and the communities that I had wanted to serve, you know, back when I was a teacher in that classroom. And so I actually went through a several months of soul searching, talking to people reading books, and thinking about the fact that I just needed to get back to who I was because I was turning into somebody that I didn't recognize someone who was very disconnected from my community, and from sort of what I thought was the calling on my life.

And so through this process of discernment, one of the things I realized was that at my core, I think I'm a teacher, I love working with other people, helping them develop into their best selves, helping them figure out how to get from point A to point B. And I always loved school. And so I sort of slowly made my way back into the education space and started networking, I was part of the Hispanic Bar Association of Austin and I knew some colleagues who are at the University of Texas. Anyway, long story short, I was able to make a pivot app into a law school, and then from there, be able to build out the school didn't have a pro bono legal services program, and I was the founder of that program. And then I started working with law students who wanted to do social justice work. And I felt like in that pivot, I really found the work that I was supposed to be doing and was able to get back to it.

But it was a process and you know, you take the pay cuts and you take the demotions, you know, I went from having this huge mahogany desk with you know, I could see the Texas Capitol from my big window to literally my first office was kind of a closet with no windows and you know, and eventually, like, it gets better, right. But there was a, you know, and I'm pointing to my chest, because I've very much like, try to like, think about where in my body, I feel discomfort. And there was this constant feeling that like, there was something missing. And then I wasn't where I was supposed to be. And luckily, you know, I was able to listen to that, and find my way back to what I now feel like, I am so happy that it's taken many forms. But you know, the rest of my career has really been around trying to serve other people in a variety of ways. And it's been the joy of my life.

Analiza: The trajectory of your career, getting that background, it makes more sense how the law school kind of happened from here. And I will try to take your learnings from people like you and try to codify them so I'm gonna do my best to do that. So it sounds like first you recognized that there was a disconnect - the person you're seeing in the mirror and then the person you are living that he wanted to be? So there was a question. And along with that, it sounds like maybe even embodiment. There was some sort of second there was the ability to ask for help that you then asked people you knew you network to talk with people about their journeys, or maybe for advice. And then third, it sounds like you also looked at resources. You read, and then force you along with talking with people networked into the next possible place, which is the law school. And then fifth, I think it sounds like you're also ready that with that pivot, it would come with costs that your heart and yet there was a real financial cost to it. Yeah, the smaller closet as your office, there was this willingness and recognition. Yes, I am going to and I'm willing to take those cuts.

So Tina, I wanted to ask you, because the idea of talking with people, right, if you can tell me, here are the two questions or here's something I really got out of those conversations. Because often, you know, we talk, we say, let's talk to people that will help you, what were you trying to seek looking back? Or even now, when you talk to people like what are the key questions you're trying to ask, what are you really trying to get out of those conversations?

Tina: I think that's such a great question. And what I'll say on all the sides that I did that back then, and that was like, probably like 2004 2005. But I've done it a few other times, because I've had, you know, if you look at my bio, it's not linear, I've done a bunch of different things. And in each of those transitions, it's a similar process, right? Where there is something happens, where I know I need to make a switch, and I need to make a change, it's usually into unknown territory. And I've got to like figure out like, a little bit of the lay of the land, and what I need to do to kind of prepare myself for that.

Usually what it is, is I'll think about people that I know and trust, who are connected to that next space, right. So when I was thinking about moving from a law firm, to something else, I wasn't talking to my law firm colleagues, I was talking to lawyers, and friends who were doing other things in a space that I was interested in. Similarly, you know, in 2014, I moved from Austin to Atlanta, needed to start my career again, and had a calling that I was really wanting to be in the nonprofit space in the educational nonprofit space. And so I didn't talk to professors, I talked to people who were in the so it's kind of like, you sort of cast your vision. And then you find the people who are doing work that you admire in that space. And those are the folks that I would reach out to.

And then what it took was me being really vulnerable and honest about - this is what I'm interested in, this is what I'm feeling. Again, this concept of calling is very big in my life. I'm feeling called to do this work. And I don't know much I just want to know, like, what's your experience been? What does it take to be successful? Where should I be? Who should I be talking to? Where are their potential opportunities? Given what you know about me? And what I've just shared with you? Where do you think that I might be able to serve?

That's what those conversations typically like how they typically start. And I think it's that when you genuinely put yourself out there, including you're like, I don't know, this, I don't have experience in this. But this is what I'm thinking, here's what I can bring to the table, then people are really generous. And along the way, always, people that I've talked to have connected with me with somebody else, or pointed me to a resource, or given me some nugget that I could then follow up on. And, you know, again, it's not immediate, and it's not linear. But it's having those very real conversations with sort of a vision that you've cast for yourself, that kind of opens up a path. And I've had that happen multiple times in my career.

Analiza: It's great to Tina, when you connect, you're connecting with the heart that this is a conversation, a relationship of trust, vulnerability, and a humility to say, hey, I don't know all the things could you advise me? So I really love that approach. And it sounds like you also combine that with like reading, do you have like, go to books or people to help you through? I mean, transitions are hard, right requires you to just stay there in the mahogany office making a lot of money, then go through there. So can you talk about any books that you recommend or back to or even just people that you'd like to listen to, as you make these transitions?

Tina: Yeah, I mean, I'm a big reader and somebody I was recently and you know, through Pahara, I was facilitating something, and I don't even realize that I'm doing it. But I was talking to somebody, and he was sharing with me a bunch of different things they wanted to do. I was like, oh, you should read this, oh, you should read this or have this book or whatever. And, you know, later in the conversation, he said to somebody that's like, if you've got a problem team has got a book for you, you know, that is like it's whatever's the most like, recent thing is on like, how to navigate these transitions. So back way back when I was, you know, trying to figure out how to transition out of corporate law. There was a book that was called What to Do With Your Law Degree, you know, and I had somebody I knew had read it. And I read the book. And I use that as kind of, there was another book called Working Identity, which was written by a woman, Law School professor, I mean, business school professor who talked about like, how to do these transitions. So it hasn't been one book in particular, it's typically like, again, like the thing that I'm interested in, you know, I start to think about like, Okay, well, who's written on this topic. So when I was thinking about, you know, making the switch to nonprofits and wanting to do the work there, I'm trying to think like, I think I read some Malcolm Gladwell, you know, the 10,000 hours, and like, following your gut, I read a lot of Brene Brown, and you know, like this whole concept of like, putting yourself out there trusting yourself in this most recent.

So I'm actually now a fellow at the Harvard advanced Leadership Institute and Harvard Advanced Leadership Initiative is the fellowship, I stepped down from my CEO role after eight years, and I'm in another transition phase. And one of the books that I read was Richard Roar’s Falling Upward. And the book is really about sort of like the two parts of your life, you know, first life and second life in probably every way imaginable. I am building a second life. Since over the last couple of years, I've gotten a divorce, my kids are out of the house, and my son graduated college, my daughter's in college, I stepped down from the CEO role, I am literally starting over. But this book was really helpful in this whole concept that we don't live just one life, we live multiple lives and like, what are the things? And how do you get connected to the values that you want to hold on to in whatever it is that you're building next. So again, I kind of am open to like, all kinds of ideas, they tend to come to me, but those are like a few that have come to mind around this transition.

Analiza: Thanks, Tina. I'm also listening to not just the head part and the heart part, but there's like a body connection. They know that with you. And even this pivot, you care a lot about serving, but also making sure that it's alignment with the mind, body, spirit soul. And so can you talk about this idea? Because I also know we share a passion for serving women color, can you talk about how I mean, if that's not the thing they teach you imagine at law school, at least they didn't know, when I was at business school to do this, like, mind, body, and soul, and then listen to instinct. And it sounds like you sort of had that embedded in you. But can you just talk through what do we mean? Like, what does that mean for you? And how do you want to see me for yourself? Or for women of color? That? Do we see things that we don't like? What's your reflection on Mind Body Soul, particularly for women of color, and for yourself?

Tina: I think, yes, to your point, it has always been a part of how I know things in this world, how I try to make decisions, but I didn't trust it for a really long time. And it's not until recently that I have actually learned to really value my intuition, what my body tells me what my spirit tells me how to be connected to those things, and to value them as ways of knowing that are equal to sort of the cognitive analytical mind, which is what we privilege, especially, you know, the environments that we work in, right. And so I think, for a long time, and especially as a woman of color, for the most part, assumptions are going to be made about your intelligence, your abilities, your capacity to lead. And one of the ways that we counteract negative assumptions is by like, going above and beyond, right. So you can't just be good, you've got to be great, and you can't just be great, you've got to be like, the best, right? So that people will take you seriously. And then, you know, I'm just going to name it like white supremacist structures. What is privileged above all else is cognitive analysis, the analytical mind, the verbal, you know, expression, and take out feelings. Don't talk about gut, you know, like, it's all sort of up here. And I really bought into that for a long time, which makes sense, right? Because it is what you need to be successful.

And so what I did was I kind of ignored those pits in my stomach, the churning in my chest. I've always been a person of faith, and I would pray, but they were more anxious prayers. And, you know, like trying to find comfort when I was feeling uncomfortable. What I've learned over the years, is that the body has a wisdom to it, and that we are spiritual beings as well. And so over the last couple of years talking about books that have been really influential, I read the Body Keeps the Score, which is all about how we hold trauma in our bodies and how that impacts our physical health. And that's very real.

My daughter was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease a couple of years ago that is very, very tied to stress and chronic stress. And many of the women in my family have autoimmune diseases. And now what we're seeing is that these are caused by being in a state of constant stress. And on all of the hormones that rushed through your body, when you're in that state, what happens when you're in fight or flight mode, you know, your brain is basically in the limbic system, we don't have access to the prefrontal cortex, which like helps us make sort of like rational decisions when we are feeling threatened.

And so like, I've just learned a ton about, like, what happens in our bodies, and then have also learned, how do we actually soothe our bodies? How do we bring down our nervous system when it's in that fight or flight, I've done a lot of research while I've been here at Harvard, on the vagus nerve, and meditation and mindfulness, and how all of these things can help you stay connected to your body, and then listen to the signals that your body's giving you. And it has been a game changer. Like even when those big emotions come up, once you have the tools to settle in, to breathe, to not sort of like clench every muscle in your fiber, you sort of create this openness that then allows you to see and feel like what's happening around you. And I went to some training on somatics. And only a very small percentage of what we know, do we discern by like information that we take in, in terms of like reading, or listening, again, like sort of that like rational, sort of analytical side of the brain, so much of what we know in this world is what we take in through our senses, through the way that our bodies feel when we're with other people. And there's a lot of research on like nervous systems co regulating together, or dysregulated. Right, depending on what's happening. That's a long answer.

But what I will say is that, I've always been aware of my body, and so but I ignored it, because it was not what I felt it was going to undermine my credibility to talk about that. And I'm on the way other side now, where I feel like now that I actually accept and value those ways of knowing all kinds of opportunities, insights, and awareness is opening up in really kind of wondrous ways. And one of the things that I want to help other women of color do is to tap into that wisdom, because it's really powerful. And for so many of us, we've denied it for a really long time.

Analiza: So much of what you share, Tina really resonates as someone, I'd even realized that I was pretty much as the standard in fight or flight, just as we have been. And I got so accustomed to that, that the turning in my stomach or my shoulders, and I was like I need just to see a doctor, they need to fix this for me. And I mean, even in education spaces, spaces that are mission aligned, like I really believe in building great schools for low income kids of color. There's a lot there. And your point about how we co regulate or dysregulated those systems. I don't think that we will, I know that we don't talk about that. And as much as we're all about the mission sacrificing and being all we can be all 1% solutions, there's this energy that is really hard. And so this is a question about environment, because if someone listening, they're like, Okay, I'm in my 30s, you're in your 50s. My hope is that people can learn one now. But two, like people who come after us, they can learn earlier. Right? Analiza didn't have to go through such toxicity.

And so what's your thought on the work is the work? There's white supremacy and of course, we want people to feel safe and loved and all of that. But there's the work that most cultures have that is white supremacy, where's the dividing line? You think, Tina, what advice would you give someone who's just like, this is the environment I'm operating in? I do want to thrive? I have all these degrees, like, you know, I've earned the spot. And yet I feel this way. And so I'm curious, you know, is it a, here's more strategies, just keep on surviving? And then keep coming down? Here's a change management try to change a culture or is it like maybe it's time to leave? I'm curious how you would advise given that we do want to have impact, and perhaps we've been having in the seats, but it is a daily trauma and pain that we're causing?

Tina: Yeah, one thing I'll start with is by saying that, I think that we are at our best when we bring all of our capabilities and faculties to the table. I don't want to minimize like the importance of like, the rational, the analytical, the strategic, that is very much a part of who I am as well. It's when we do that, and not the other things, right, that we're out of balance. And we're we're actually leaving some of our capacities on the table. Right.

So I think part of it is by doing our own work to figure out like, Okay, what is my body feel like when it's under stress when it's under fight or flight when I am so all amped up that I actually can't have a what I'm going to call an let's call it an expansive conversation, because something in my body is feeling unsafe. Right. So once we do our own work, and what I'm hoping is eventually that organizations will help their employees and their leaders do this work as well, I think we need that. So that's, you know, the journey that I'm on. But for now, most places aren't doing that. And so we do our own work, we're responsible for learning that for ourselves.

So now I'll speak for myself, if I'm in a conversation, where I start to feel I'm feeling threatened. And I know that because my stomach is hurting, my heart rate is racing, I now know that this is not going to be a time where I'm going to be able to engage in a conversation in a way that's going to expand solutions. So what you learn is how to take the time, either in the moment or later, to bring your nervous system back down, right to breathe, to kind of say, what's going on? What's this feeling? Okay, it belongs here? How do I accept it? Why is it here? What do I do with this right to just take those moments that the muscle that you can build, and so even in the spaces, we all have to work within the structures that we're in, right, and we want to be successful, we want to have impact, so we need to do the work. But once you're aware of like, oh, right, this structure doesn't always provide me with the safety and the space and the ways to tap into, like, other ways of being. So I'm gonna have to do that for myself, once we're aware of that, that in and of itself, already, kind of, like, provide some protection, right.

And I'll give an example. We were talking about this issue, and like, this whole concept of staying in your body, recognizing what's happened, breathing, and then it's almost like you create this like, a little bit of an energy field, that gives you a little bit of protection, so that you're sort of like, I'm safe. I'm okay, I'm still in this space with you. But right, now, I'm gonna have to put my energy field up until I can sort of like, you know, be okay, feel okay. And then I can come back into this space, right? So I think it's really about and self care gets thrown around a lot. And I believe in that. But self care is not only, you know, sort of like taking a hot bath, that's really important, or taking a nap that is really important. But it's actually about like really getting to know yourself, and what your body needs, and how to soothe yourself, and also how to find your colleagues who can help you get back into that regulated space, because we do need connection and we need each other. And so like, how do you find the people in your world, and sometimes it might be picking up the phone to talk to somebody to just get back into like, where you're feeling, okay, and you can keep doing the work, too many of us just try to white knuckle our way through. Like we ignore it, like, Okay, I can't deal with this, I just got to keep powering through. And we are we've become really good at it. But it's at our expense. It's at the expense of our bodies, it's at the expense of our peace. And then somehow we have to discharge all that energy. And it typically ends up being on ourselves on our families and other spaces. And that's a really hard way to live. And so what I'm hoping is that we can help each other, like learn these techniques earlier, so that we can just have, you know, lives of flourishing in all of the spaces we inhabit.

Analiza: I mean, when I think about Tina, just what it means to live a life of flourishing of freedom. It is a place where we feel safe, I mean, baseline right before I started galavanting frolicking in the in the flowers, like can I feel safe to be here? And how do we normalize even the feelings that we have in our body to be in touch with them and to self soothe? These are such important skills and to know we don't have to do it alone, right. Like I love that we you and I share Mahara because the power of that community to have these conversations and to know, wow, I'm not by myself. Other people have these experiences, and we can share and you find deliberation together. Like it's incredibly powerful.

Tina: Last thing I'll say is to know like, so a lot of times my instinct is to fight, right? So like, I'll be in a class or I'll be in a meeting, and I'll hear something that just like, pushes that button, what happens my heart starts to race I feel the heat come up. I feel like in that moment, I need to fight whatever the thing is, it's not what's the whatever the lie is or whatever the oppressive sort of thought is that it's my obligation to like counteract that in that moment. What I have learned and given myself grace to do is I actually don't always have to do that in that moment. And it's okay for me to actually take care of myself first. And then if the appropriate time address the thing, right. And so I think a lot of us carry that sort of burden of like, we've got to fight every battle right as it happens, and that will burn you out as well. Right.

So it's also that self compassion work, and kind of letting yourself off the hook in the moment, so that you can kind of regroup and then come back and keep doing the work, because this is a lifelong, lifelong journey.

Analiza: Thanks for mentioning that. Because I feel like when we're so mission oriented, we need to make things better for the people in our lives. Now, people come after us, there's this, I have to do something. And if I don't, it's not enough, I'm failing. And I'm so glad that you've said to us actually, the right thing to do sometimes is to take a step back and make sure you are taking care of yourself. I love the word grace, because honestly, I don't think I heard that much really recently. But it's such a power skill, because if we can offer ourselves compassion and grace, then it's easier to extend that to others.

Tina: Absolutely. Other people what we don't give ourselves. And that's another lesson that I've learned recently, right, is that we give from our reserves, and if we don't know how to have grace and love and compassion for ourselves, the grace and compassion we extend to other people will be limited, or it will be transactional. And so the more that we practice these things for ourselves, the more we can actually give out into the world.

Analiza: Absolutely. Tina, let's do some lightning round. Are you ready?

Tina: Yeah.

Analiza: Chocolate or vanilla?

Tina: Chocolate,

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Tina: Cooking,

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Tina: Climb a mountain.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Tina: Sadly, yes.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills scale of 1 to 10-10 being Mariah Carey?

Tina: I'm gonna give myself an eight.

Analiza: What's our recent book, you read?

Tina: My Grandmother’s Hands.

Analiza: What's your favorite way to practice self care?

Tina: Right now? Okay, so this is gonna sound a little crazy. This is not lightning round. But I met with an Ayurvedic healer, who gave me a practice to do every morning. And she gave me this Soothing Oil. And every morning, she told me to rub it on myself and you know, just kind of soothe myself. And I've been doing that every morning. And during that time frame. And it's just become a really special time where I feel like I'm not only taking time for myself, but also to be in relationship with God, and to just spend some time setting my intentions for the day for the week for my life. And it just feels like really, really important time, 10 minutes every morning, but it's been really, really great.

Analiza: And then what's a professional development program that you've loved?

Tina: Well, I'm gonna have to say the race, reflection practice and action retreat that we just had through Pahara was truly one of the most transformative events I've participated in. So it's still on my heart. I'm still processing all of the wondrous things that happen there.

Analiza: What's your definition of a Boss Mama?

Tina: Five two brown, great karaoke singer.

Analiza: So good. What advice would you give your younger self?

Tina Fernandez 33:09 Oh, my God, the advice I would give my younger self is love yourself. Take care of yourself, you are enough, you are worthy. And it's all going to be even better than okay.

Analiza: And where can we find you like LinkedIn anywhere else?

Tina: Oh, yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram. I'm on Twitter. I'm all over social media. But if you start with LinkedIn, you can get all of my handles for all of the rest of it.

Analiza: Last question, do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts to share?

Tina: I just want to share that I think that women and women of color - Black women, LatinX women, Asian women, white women, we carry our families, we carry our communities. And I think that, like I just want to say we're all bad asses. And I just want to give a shout out, especially to my BIPOC women leaders and encourage us always to take care of ourselves and take care of each other, and to walk into our amazingness and own our value, and share it with the world.

Analiza: Shout out to you, Tina, thank you so much for this love and all the wonderful stories and wisdom really appreciate you.

Tina: Thank you Analiza thanks for all you're doing to spread the love.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time today to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, please share with someone else you can share the link and posts on Facebook and say check it out. Lastly, I want to thank you for being a listener and you can go to get a free self care bonus called juice your joy at analizawolf.com/freebonus - thank you so much!