Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise Podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipina American, mom of two, and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the US Air Force. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. We'll be talking with successful CEOs and C suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys. If you're a woman or woman of color who wants a seat at the table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I am honored today to be talking with Cheryl Crazy Bull. She's a member of the Sicangu Lakota nation and the President and CEO of the American Indian College Fund. She is an advocate for self determination focused on native voice philosophy traditions as the heart of the people's work in building prosperity for current and future generations. She has a long background in education. She served in different roles at the University, the Sinte Gleska University on the Rosebud Reservation. It's her home reservation in South Dakota, she's got so many different roles, so many different rewards. Back in 2021, one of the awards she received was from Global Mind Education, a nonprofit dedicated to closing the equity gap, and help with diverse talent pipelines. And she was awarded a 2021 inclusive leader award. Cheryl, thank you so much for being here. I'm so grateful. And I'm excited to dig deep into your story.

Cheryl: Thank you.

Analiza: So Cheryl, one of the questions I often ask the people, the inspiring women who come is about your identity and your upbringing. And so when you think about you as a young person, how did your identity shape this career path and education and even in this role that you have today?

Cheryl: Thanks for asking that. It made me think about my parents who grew up on the Rosebud Indian Reservation, they were both graduates of boarding schools, which were really places where our people were taken to in order to kind of subvert their identity and take away all of their family connections and relationships. And my parents were really good. So they raised me and my siblings first in a small town on the reservation, St. Francis, and then in another small town, Rosebud.

And when I think about my upbringing, I think about the way that they modeled being a family. And they modeled relationships and doing things for other people, making sure that we were taken care of and that their relatives were taken care of, they have a store, and they closed that store, and my dad went to work for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. And I just think that having that stable, kind of community grounded, extended family experience shaped me, because I had security. And I had, I didn't want for anything, really because they worked. And so that that made it possible, then for me to know, enjoy my school experience. I tried multiple colleges before I succeeded, but they really gave me that support. So I think just that cultural grounding that they gave me, which was not the lessons, it was never like, Oh, here's what we do as Indians or it was just doing it. And I think that that really formed who I am,

Analiza: How it has that your values, perhaps that's included storytelling helps shape your leadership, especially as an indigenous woman at home of an important organization during this great work?

Cheryl: Yeah, I think I'm really influenced by a desire to actually share that with others. I believe that we as tribal educators are really saving people's lives. I think I have believed that for many, many years in my career. That's very motivating. When you realize that the actions that you take, as a native person, reinforce or even help people find identity, find their indigenous identity, which they have a right to. I think when you help people understand that they have relatives that they can turn to that they have relationships, people who love them and want them To be successful, I think about kind of revitalization of cultural practice and the tribal communities that we work with, you know, had been so taken away from us by boarding schools and relocation, which was the practice of sending native people from rural and reservation communities to live and work in urban areas. So kind of detaching them from, you know, that grounding that the land gives, and those close family relationships provide. So I think about our work as educators, and I'm really inspired by the fact that the actual things that we do really transform lives for people. So I might have lost my train of thought with that. But I just feel like it's really important to recognize that.

Analiza: The arc of story, your personal story sharing about your parents going in boarding schools, and yet they stayed grounded, had this support family kept you close, right close to indigenous culture, and this country wide attempt to force people to forget to assimilate, it's beautiful how your you and your family have really held on to it. And now you at the helm as a strong 69 that determine 69 are continuing to lead and model for others that this is important. And as someone who isn't indigenous, but also has a similar story, that really means a lot to me.

My parents really wanted us to learn English, didn't speak Tagalog and had us really assimilate. And for some, as an Asian American, you know, being held up as this, Oh, wow, she's very successful, or they're successful. But in reality, there was so much struggle. And I was deliberately kept away from my culture and heritage and the beauty of all this history.

And so it's really inspiring to hear you, Cheryl, talk about how you are doing that, not just for yourself, but for so many young people, and so, so many indigenous people. And so I'd love to talk about that. How do you connect people back to even maybe they don't even know their family, or they've lost touch with the culture or the language? What does that look like as you help people to reach back and build strength through this ancestral connection?

Cheryl: Yeah, so I'm going to speak kind of from two perspectives, because I'm a mother and a grandmother. And now I'm a great grandmother. I have a large extended family of siblings, I'm married, I have children and stepchildren. So we have a really large extended family and we modeled for them how to translate and do things for our cultural identity, that kind of take into account that we lived in modern times. So I'll use getting an Indian name as an example. And before English came into our lives, you know, we became English speakers before we had contact with Europeans.

When you were a baby among the Lakotas, you got a name somebody named you gave you whatever that name is, that was your name, you might, at some point in your life, get a different name, and maybe give your name away. But you might get more than one name. But when we got English, then mostly the government and the churches started giving us English names. And when they started giving us English names, then they kind of took away that tradition, us naming ourselves, right.

And many, probably decades now because I got an Indian name when I was around 16 years old. So for decades, our people among the Lakota, certainly and other tribes might have other traditions, but our people conduct ceremonies to give you a name, and somebody will maybe dream of a name or give you a family name. And so we pass that on. We teach our children and our grandchildren how to do that so that you can have an identity that's in your name.

So My Lakota name is Wacinyanpi Win, which means They Depend on Her. So each and each person gets a name and the family and however that gets done. Well we do that same thing. As members of the community, as relatives and as educators. We bring to our I'll just speak to like what the college fund does we bring to the students that we work with and their families support so that the tribal colleges or the work that we do connects them to their identity. So we teach about practices, right? And sometimes tribal colleges will, you know, host drumming and singing events, sell, do different kinds of things that reinforce or teach cultural practice and teach people about their own identity. And I think that's the way that we adapt, because we recognize that we're adapting, but we perpetuate, and keep those practices going, even though society, you know, has changed.

Analiza: I hear you are a great grandmother, my goodness, you're all I can't imagine how. Yeah. And you're able to share these practices with your family, and also with young people at colleges. And even if a person doesn't have that connection, there are entry points to having a name and learning a particular cultural practice. So making it much more available. And so I love that, because sometimes it's not right, like where to find these opportunities. I wish I had that for mine.

Cheryl: Yeah, well. So what I tell people is, you know, one of the things that we do, I think, as people with, you know, maybe recognition or even like among tribal peoples, people who are older are highly valued. So we get to take advantage of that, and give advice and give support, because that's part of our cultural practice or cultural tradition. So one of the things that we do is give you permission to do that, but give you permission, that it might be a little bit scary, to try to figure out who your relatives are, you might feel a little uncertain about going and learning songs.

Or you might not know, you might feel uncomfortable asking, like, what's the rituals that I could have gone through as a young woman that I didn't get to? Can I still do something? And I think part of our responsibility, we talk about this, you know, as relatives or even among our tribal college, people on the college fund, telling people, that's okay, that's okay. You can go to one of my colleagues, she was really admiring one of our Cheyenne language teachers. And he said to her, you should go learn your own language. And she's Italian. And she did. And she found a family and she, you know, learned Italian. And she often talked about him saying that to her, made her think, why am I not doing that? So you could go do that? You can go find that for yourself.

Analiza: I love that so much. It's not a lost cause. Right?

Cheryl: For you know, yeah, I mean, I'm not a native, another fluent speaker, my family did that probably sounds like the same thing yours did, which is to say, you know, you have to learn English, because, you know, they're here. And if you want to survive, I mean, I was born at a time when my dad's grandparents had been moved to the reservation. So they understood the danger we were in. And they thought the response to that danger was not to talk Lakota. But I tried to say something in Lakota every day. Because in that way, I'm recognizing that that's who I am. And so I encourage you to learn your language. And even if all you do is say Good day, you could do that.

Analiza: Beautiful, and it makes it accessible. Thank you, Cheryl. Because it feels like all or nothing like you go home, you go to the homeland, you leave. But there is a way of bridging this modern life in America, and also look back and keep it alive. There's a bridge, and to do that first and family, right to make sure you're doing that, especially as mothers and then how do we do that for young people? It's a beautiful thing. I love this so much because we can all take from this right as a Filipino person from Italy, right? Even from Europe, like there is grounding for white people, that we aren't just America, right? This slice of history. It's a long history that has roots in our Motherland, and especially here, this is indigenous land. This is where it all began with your people. So let's make sure you stay grounded in that and not assume there's one way the American way. And that will always be. So it's a great reminder.

Cheryl, I want to talk about your leadership. Because again, it's so beautiful and unique to have an indigenous woman at the helm, not just creating impact on your area, but people look to you and see you as someone here as an inclusive leader. And I'm curious, what insights as someone who has a role like yours and has seen over decades, the evolving I hope of leadership? How is that experience? I mean, what have you learned over time that when you look back you wish, okay, I wish I'd known that or I wish others knew this as they tried to follow in your footsteps.

Cheryl: I think that I have an advantage and that among the tribal colleges and universities, there have always been women presidents. And many times the percentage of presidents that are women, you know, will be half at least half of the presidents. And so there were always those women in leadership roles at that level that I could see when I was younger, just kind of getting started in my tribal educator career. In my community, there were always women who were community leaders, there were women who really what happened, and which I think is fairly typical, but what it's the influence of that's the sort of Eurocentric view about women's roles, that what happened in native communities for a period of time was that women, they were the not visible organizers and activists.

But when you start looking, you find a lot of women that were actually leading those efforts. And I do think we had a lot of that Eurocentric influence that made it look like oh, man started, you know, that college, but in actuality, it was men and women who started those institutions. So that was one of the things that I wish that I had understood earlier, I think, because then you have more role models, you have more potential mentors, you develop, I think, a stronger understanding of how we've been impacted by those Eurocentric viewpoints and values. So that's a piece of advice that I often give is that you really need to take a look as a woman as to what your cultural practices really were, and how those cultural practices were influenced by European society, and then bringing those over here. And luckily for the indigenous community, there's been a lot of research and writing in that area. So there's lots of different ways to access that, that not just talking to people, but if you're an academic like me, you can also look, read a book that will help you understand that. So that's one thing I wish, you know, that more people knew and more people understood, when I was a younger woman that I really respected.

A lot said that leadership started in your home, how you raise your family, and we say among the Lakotas and other tribes, as well, that your responsibility is to be a good relative. And you know, being a good relative carries with it, reciprocity that you give to people and they make sure you're taken care of also, it carries with it respect. So you call people by relative name. So that sets up the kind of social norms for how you're supposed to interact with each other. So when you're a good relative, you have those kinds of guides. And I think that for women, indigenous women, I think it's true for all women, what are those? Right? Like, if you were to define what being a good relative meant for yourself, what are those things that come with that? And then what can you expect to receive in return?

When I was at Sydney, Glasgow University, I had wonderful mentors. And the longtime president of that college who passed away just several months ago, you know, was a person who gave me the opportunity to have lots of different experiences. And I realized, though, at one point that that glass ceiling was on top of my head, and that he was never going to leave, or he was not, I shouldn't say never going to leave, although he didn't leave. But that was his career. That was his love. And he wasn't going to retire or step aside. He was a young man, but that wasn't really realistic for me. So I did go to my tribal school and serve as the CEO there for a while, and then a tribal college presidency came open.

And I thought, you know, this is what I tell young Native people, but I would tell young women like yourself, you get to aspire to be an executive, you get to aspire to take what you've learned, and apply that in a leadership role. That was hard to do. Because we often as women, and I think as people of color, are told that message doesn't even have to be like, blatantly stated, it can just be the subtle message that society gives you that you're not good enough, or that people are going to find out that whole imposter thing, when when that first kind of started getting name them constant syndrome, that people are going to find out, you're not really that good, that has a lot of power. And that kind of happened to me.

And I told myself, you know what, you can be that good. You can take your vision, and apply it. And so giving myself that permission, was very powerful, and lined up with that, you have to also be a learner. So you have to be humble. So I recognize that even now, I'm still learning. So a good example is I didn't really understand how to apply Dei, and an organization like mine, where I'm leading, I'm learning about that, I'm still trying to figure out what that looks like. I'm, you know, asking and working with other people. So I do think you can say to yourself, I can be that leader, I can be whatever that leadership role is, maybe it's in a department or program, or maybe it's the head of the organization, or the head of a business. But you should still be a learner in that context, right? So that you stay fresh, and are able to serve and help people.

I think if you think you're going to be a leader, and you don't have anything else to learn, people, you're going to fail, and people aren't going to like you, they're not going to want to work for you. I don't mean like you like, Oh, I like you, but like, they're just not gonna want to work for you. Because you're not, you're not seeing as interested in helping them be better at what they're doing. So that's kind of my advice to women is yes, aspire to be the CEO, and keep learning, because all kinds of new things come up.

Analiza: Cheryl, this is beautiful. I want to stamp it so that we're really clear on these lessons in these gems. First, women have always led. They were invisible before. But if we reach back to our culture, as you'll see, women have always led second, leadership starts at home. And it's getting really clear, what does it mean to be a great relative to have reciprocity, to have respect. Third is to aspire for the leadership role and aspire to be CEO. And while there might be feelings of impostor syndrome, and what questions of worthiness we can fill ourselves with those beliefs, that we can do it. But we need to stay humble. And so Worthing is a learner, that not only allows you to learn, but it also allows people to get close to you to see you as human to believe that you will not just help yourself, but help them too.

Cheryl: Yeah, good summary. Good job.

Analiza: Cheryl, I want to talk about this - aspire to be the CEO, because this is while it shouldn't be revolutionary, it is sadly, you don't hear that right? And growing up,if a little girl, you know, they often go around when we think about when we were young people. Oh, what do you want to be? It was a teacher, a nurse, you know, I wanted to be a doctor. And those were, Yes, nod your head. Those are good jobs to want to aspire to imagine if a little girl said I want to be CEO. And for you and me we'd be like, yes, they should absolutely aspire to be in that big role. And yet, it's not something based on society that would automatically give a round of applause. And so can we go there because I get humility. I think women often are humble in general. If we were to talk through what it means to aspire to dream big like this. Can we go deeper into it?

What I've heard from different women I've talked with and coached, they don't want to have power, right? It's Like they they show up to an organization and they're like, I want power, I want the biggest title. It's often I want to serve, how can I have the biggest impact? What can I do to use my skills to make things better for people? And so how do we remedy that Cheryl? Like this? No, I don't want power. I don't need to be at the helm. I don't know. No, no, that's for someone else. I'm fine being behind the scenes. But yet, a lot of women say this. So what would you say to that? What would you say to some of the societal pressure, often starting from where when were young girls? To say, Yes, aspire to be at the top? Like, what would help us through this so that we can offer? And you're obviously at the, you know, at the helm of your organization? How can we help to urge people to pass these mindsets and these beliefs to really aspire to have roles like yours?

Cheryl: Mm hmm. That's a really good area to talk about. I recognized, I would have to think about why or how that happened. I think I recognized fairly early in my career, that political dynamics existed everywhere, that people were constantly negotiating for influence, and negotiating for authority. I don't know, you know, I have an undergraduate degree in business. And I went to business school, when very few women did. And so maybe that helped kind of shape some of that was recognizing that, in the slots of the classes I was in at that time, there were maybe two or three women and there were definitely not other Indians in those classes. So you know, maybe that helped a little bit to help me see that I had to act with a certain amount of, like, give myself a power in my voice, and then my actions, because otherwise I wouldn't be heard in that room. And the guys I went to school with they assumed being heard, right, they had socially been raised that way. And that's an influencer. I think of that.

And I think we think and I'm in America, you know, we think of power as damaging other people. But I think of it more as navigating to do things that influence how you allocate resources, or influence how you move towards your goals, like the college fund has certain things that we want to accomplish, and you have to exercise power to move yourself to work that and you have to exercise influence. I also think maybe I assume goodness in people when they rise to those roles.

Analiza: Cheryl, I want to try to stamp these beautiful highlights, because it's so rare to hear a woman say, sees that top role, and power is not bad. A few things you said versus from your upbringing, from your experiences, getting your MBA, you saw that unless you had a voice, you wouldn't be able to really speak up and contribute. And knowing that you realize that you've had to take authority had to take power to make sure that you are visible. So I hear that as being part of shaping your view on power. Second, this realization that power is not bad, that while people can tell young girls to like you shouldn't want power, actually, power helps us to allocate resources, and really get our vision done so that we can better serve. And third, this idea that when we think about powerful people, they're not bad people, right? And yes, it's different from corporate and nonprofit. But we can have a beautiful and altruistic view that the people who will try to rise to the top are not doing it for self interest, but actually do care.

And so when we have these viewpoints, we can encourage our young people, especially girls to want these roles, because that's how we can really change the world. We can be the change, we can be the CEO. And so I love all of that. And I love that you've embodied it. And yes, we'll continue to ponder about it. But it's inspiring to see a woman of color and indigenous woman lead like that. So Cheryl, if you're up for it, I'd love to do some lightning round questions. Are you ready?

Cheryl: I am. Let me correct that I have an undergraduate degree in business and my graduate work in education. Okay, so can I strike that balance there?

Analiza: Perfect. Thank you. Yeah. All right. So lightning round questions. First question: chocolate or vanilla.

Cheryl: That was a hard one. Vanilla with one, why chocolate any other time?

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Cheryl: Oh, I do both.

Analiza: Would you rather climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Cheryl: I would rather climb a mountain.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Cheryl: I lived in the Northwest for about 10 years. So of course.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills, one to 10, 10 being Mariah Carey.

Cheryl: Maybe one.

Analiza: Let's say a recent book you read?

Cheryl: Oh, I read really a lot. I am currently reading The Ninth Man, which is the novel. And I'm in the middle of reading a really great book that I actually recommend to your listeners. The Body Keeps the Score, which is about the brain, mind and body and the healing of trauma. What an important collection of information. I'm finding it very informative.

Analiza: What is your favorite way to practice self care?

Cheryl: So I'm a quilter, and, and a beater and a journalist. So I also make sure I exercise but I, when I think of self care, I think of doing these things that are really industrious use of my hands.

Analiza: What's a good professional development that you've done?

Cheryl: Recently, I have been working on learning about I guess some of the newer things that we're dealing with in organizations like how to be more inclusive, appease people with disabilities, how to space more supportive of the LGBTQ community. So I've been doing that through some just webinars and some mentoring and coaching from others who are working in those areas. So I think at my stage in lot career, I'm not doing the, you know, five day leadership workshop,

Analiza: What's your definition of a boss, Mama?

Cheryl: A Boss Mama, my kids would probably say, It's me.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Cheryl: You know, I think I would tell myself not to be so like not to take to heart when other people don't see you, the way you see yourself. I can remember instances where I felt hurt that somebody thought something about me. But they didn't really know me and it took a while. This might be my advice to other women also that that's other people's perspectives. And you get to discern whether or not you have something to learn from that, or whether it's just their perspective. I think I think I might have taken the, what can I learn from this? I wish I'd known that sooner. That if somebody saw something in me, and it made it hard for them to work with me or be supportive. Maybe there was something for me to learn, but instead, I just had hurt feelings.

Analiza: And then where can we find you like LinkedIn or any website?

Cheryl: Yeah, yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. Of course, I'm on Facebook, but that's mostly personal. The college fund where I work has all of the different you know, Instagram, LinkedIn, Tik Tok, everything, you can find those by going to our homepage, www collegeboard.org. I also have a blog, the President's blog, which I invite people to go to. I don't do a lot of other social media, but I am on LinkedIn. And I often post links to my blog and other kinds of things that I'm working on.

Analiza: And then lastly, do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts to share?

Cheryl: Yeah, so I think I want to remind people that, you know, we celebrate indigenous people at different times throughout the year in October, we have indigenous peoples day in November, we have Native American heritage month. But we believe that we are indigenous every day. And I invite people to learn more about that by going to the this Indian country.com website, where we have a lot of resources and a lot of opportunity for people to learn more about indigenous people every day.

Analiza: So beautiful. Cheryl, thank you so much for these insights and words of wisdom. I really appreciate your time.

Cheryl: Well, thank you.

Thank you so much for carving out time today to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, please share with someone else you can share the link and put on Facebook and say check it out. Lastly, I want to thank you for being a listener and you can go to get a free self care bonus called juice your joy at analizawolf.com/freebonus. Thank you so much