Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise Podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipina American mom of two, and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the US Air Force. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. We'll be talking with successful CEOs and C suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys. If you're a woman or woman of color, who wants a seat at the table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I am thrilled today to be talking with Dr. Shai Butler. She calls herself the CEO Chief Encouragement Officer. And she brings her decades long career as a higher education executive, a public servant really to motivate others and she does this through life and career coaching, including her consulting business called strategies. I am thrilled especially to be talking about her memoir called Better, Not Perfect from Hot Mess to Life Success. And it's a woman's guide to learning, loving, and being herself unapologetically. This is a love letter that really explores Dr. Shai's shame her triumph her amazing I call like the phoenix rising from the ashes. And she shares all of it. It's a wonderful book, and we're gonna get into it. Dr. Shai, thank you so much for being here.

Shai: Analiza, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. And I'm really looking forward to the conversation today.

Analiza: So Dr. Shai, let's start with your upbringing. Did you know when you were a young child that you would be a doctor that you would? How did your identity shape this career path of yours?

Shai: Oh, no, I had no idea. I had a doctor and my family, you know, but I didn't. He was my uncle. And I didn't really aspire to be one. And I would say, you know, when I was younger, my very youngest memory, I think, had me saying I was going to be a teacher. And I did teach at some point in my career, I was in the classroom, the undergraduate and graduate level. But I could say this, when I was younger, I knew that I had this feeling that I was meant to do something to be something and that it was going to be great. But I didn't know in what way. And I didn't think about greatness in terms of fame. I didn't think about race in terms of money. I just thought that it's weird to swear to describe and explain. But I felt like there was something I was supposed to do in life. And I got that sense from a very young age.

Analiza: So let's talk about that Dr. Shai . Because I often feel that as children, we have this knowing that life is okay, we're okay. And we have a sort of self confidence that starts to erode. Because society because especially as women of color, there's pressure, and then we start to internalize. And your book really brings that to light. And I'd love for I don't want to give away like the whole amazing story. But if you could talk about how those struggles, you still kept that alive. And so can you talk about that just give us an arc, you know, you have this amazing career, and then yet you ran into some trouble. Right? And so can you talk about that, and then how you stayed grounded?

Shai: Sure. So I would say, before I go back, I will say that, in addition to knowing that they will or the sense that there was going to be something great as part of my life, the evolution of the child, to the team to the woman also pointed out how I was different, different than those around me. And there were situations in life that affirm that difference. And I as a young person hated that difference, because I wanted so badly to not be different and to fit in and that feeling of desiring to be different and forgetting about what that younger person embraced in her spirit and in her soul that she was destined to do something great. And I'm not saying I've done it yet. I'm still on a journey to whatever this greatness mission that I sensed and felt as a child, but the desire to fit in began to overshadow any remembrance of this feeling of aspiring to be great. And now emerged in the teen years.

But going back to the beginning, you know, I grew up in a very impoverished neighborhood and projects of Brooklyn, New York, you know, my parents separated when I was two, my dad stayed with my mom, my mom had custody, and my dad would visit as much as he could my dad struggled. I mean, to say, my dad was immensely talented, my dad was a brilliant and a creative person, who also struggled with addiction. And his struggle with addiction prevented him from showing up in my life, consistently, and doing what dads should do for their daughters, really for their children.

But I'm going to speak about their daughters, because that's been my experience, and that is affirming. They should be the first person to tell you how smart you are, how beautiful you are, and how much they love you and how much you deserve to be loved. And he was not able to consistently be that voice and presence in my life. My mom was however she was, she was a consistent presence in my life. But she was that single parent, trying to do it alone, and therefore spent a lot of time working.

So therefore, the raising of me fell to my grandmother, my mother's mother, who I really spent most of my days with as a young child, and my mother's mother was a foster mother. And so they will always, children around me growing up, I was in a house full of children. I was an only child for nine years. Matala, my younger sister came along when I was age nine. But for those first nine years, those formative years, I was surrounded by children, and children, no doubt, who had experienced trauma, but when you're young, and you're playing, you don't think about the trauma as much, and they were long time, foster children with my grandmother, so they had kind of settled and we had this brotherly sisterly relationship.

So I would say you know how I grew up poor, without knowing I was poor, because I didn't really have a frame of reference that that is that cave leader. But, you know, that's the environment I grew up in. And one day, you know, my grandmother became ill, not long after she died. And I think that was a pivotal moment. In my young adulthood. I was 12. And I essentially lost the woman who was, in my mind, more of a mother than my mother. Not that I didn't love my mother and my mother was there for me. But my mother worked a lot because she had to because my mother was a hard working woman. And my grandmother raised me for the most part, I mean, my mother lives with us, but my grandmother was a constant presence. And the grief from that loss, combined with the onset of hormones from being that 1213 year old, with the onset of transitioning out of puberty, and to what my body recall, now, I'm a woman, because my menses had on set, and I was just 13.

Now, you know, and I was a sad child, all the children had gone away. My mother was still working. I was. So now I was raising this younger sister of mine. And everyone around me was grieving the loss of this great matriarch. And I went from being the center of her world and life as a playground to a young teen who was responsible for a three year old, who was pretty much isolated and quiet, within withdrawal withdrawn, but then her own grief. So that's the early early years, you know,

Analiza: Dr. Shai, that story. Thank you so much for sharing. And I want to lift up a few things, the way in which you share that story. As much as you love your father, and he's very talented. also acknowledging that you wished you had this love and affirmation, and that balance of I see you yet. I really wished that it could have been different yet. I know that you did your best. And I see that same theme with your mother. And it's this looking at it and you're not painting this rosy colored picture of hey, it was perfect. And everything was just la-di-da. No, it was hard. And yet, here I am at this juncture having lost this matriarch mother figure, being sad having to navigate the transition of puberty by herself. And I remember actually listening to this part in your book, and just the way in which you described how what happened, and then the community's reaction? Could you share that too with us?

Shai: Sure. So I set up where I was at that point in my life, emotionally, mentally, psychologically. And being in that place actually opened the door for things to enter my life that I will say were artificial versions of the realities of which I needed the affirmation, the love. So essentially, the first boy that wrote up to me on his bike and told me, I was pretty, within a week, I'd lost my virginity to, it's the first time any boy had really showed me any attention, I was getting a blossom, and I sought to be seen in the wrong person. So I understand now what I didn't understand then was that I felt visible. I felt like I had no voice. I felt like I wasn't seeing, and this person showed up. And he saw me, also, I thought, and that began to, you know, that early sexual encounter at the age of 13, I think it was ill timed. And instead of making me feel affirmed, it actually broke me down even further. And there were experiences, it opened the door to sex, it opened the door to shame, because I grew up in a very religious home, where I could even discuss sex with my mother, when I would say, when I would try to bring up a conversation about sex she, her one, remember her response was, why are you asking? You don't need to know anything about sex until you get married. And so there was no conversation about sex.

And within a few months time, I found that I was pregnant. And I had to break that news to my mother. And I made the fear that I had, you know, this was really the worst thing that could happen to a young woman and my community and my culture, and my family. And it was devastating for her for me. And so at the age of 14, I became a mom, a mom to a beautiful little girl, and who I've been blessed to have consistently been in my life and who I've raised, who's now a successful woman in her own right, with a graduate degree and a great career. But that's fast forward. So but yeah, back at that age and stage not having that affirmation. I was new, I had the love of my father. But, you know, knowing something intellectually, feeling it emotionally. And then being able to validate that understanding is not always what happens, but we live out our lives.

Analiza: Thank you so much for sharing, especially when you're such a young person trying to be seen and be loved. I mean, I hear that theme, Dr. Shai, just, it often, we don't even realize that that's what we need. And so when we get it, it makes complete sense. Like, I'm finally getting it. Okay, I'm going to open myself up. And whether you do it through sex or through drugs or through, we're overworking, I mean, just trying to be validated. Can you tell me that? I'm good. I'm okay. And I've been amazing. I'm just like, can you just see me?

And whatever you to get that I mean, it's what you just nursed here is the cycle. I'm not enough. I need to be seen. I didn't have it as a kid. And therefore it perpetuates a cycle. Your story then continues, and I want to get like when you think about these moments, right? hard moments of it was incredibly difficult, yet a gift. And so this beautiful gift of your daughter and the relationship you have. And I love how you talk about I know we're fast forwarding, but just can you talk through the arc even further in your life out there continuing to be tough challenges and yet your learnings from them. I mean, it's just extraordinary in the way that you share. I mean, Dr. Shai, I'm just like, wow, I learned so much. I'm inspired by it. Would you mind sharing with our audience?

Shai: Yeah, I guess what's important to take away from the beginning of the story is that I developed ways in which I would navigate the world based on those early experiences. So early on in life being smart I was skipped in middle school because academically I was really smart. And I got a lot of praise and affirmation from my family for those good grades. So I went to see it when I brought it home and I, you know, was vocally praised and lifted up and appreciated.

So I began to internalize, you know, that affirmation with love and with being seen. And so that was part of the thing that set me on this path towards perfectionism. But then also, the shame and the degradation that came with being a teen mom and my community in my church in my family, also showed me bad when you do something bad, how some, all of that affirmation can be just swept away, taken away, overnight.

And so I made a decision, knowingly or not, that I would stay away from the bad as much as possible, and try to do nothing that would position me to have to experience that shame that segregation, again, and I'm going to constantly seek positive affirmation and put myself in positions to gain praise awards, good grades. So that tracked me on this path of perfectionism, this worldview and lens that I now brought to how I'm going to navigate the world and be a success in life. And so I had a bumpy start, you know, in the book, I talk about starting college at 16, because I was skipped in middle school and failing out by the age of 18.

Because I was completely immature, sort of this other pattern in life where I've got the academic smarts, but the psychosocial emotional immaturity, you know that we're all converging around the same time, I was able to get through that because, you know, I was never comfortable in mediocrity or in failure, failing status. And I always tell women I speak to that failing at something doesn't make you a failure. But it took me a while to learn and understand and embrace that and find grace and mercy for myself for those times when I did fail. But failing became not an option. I have gone on this pursuit of perfectionism.

And I eventually got back into college, I graduated, I got my undergraduate degree, I went to grad school, when I went away to college. And I eventually had to go away to college, because I had the sense and wherewithal to know that New York City wasn't the place where I was going to really get it done. So I moved away to upstate New York, I took my daughter with me, and people thought that was a very courageous, but very crazy thing to do as a 21 year old, not knowing anyone in the city that we moved to. And so I started this new life, and it was courageous. And it was crazy. But you know, it worked out.

And that pursuit of perfectionism, translated into the grad, you know, getting the graduate degree, building my career, still wanting to be a great mom, you know, I had a great mom role models in front of me. So trying to do what I thought she would do in different situations. And I was beginning to amass all of this success in my 20s, my early mid 20s. And then as I moved into my later, 20s, and I saw that, wow, I've got all these great things going for me, but I don't have a life partner. And I don't even have the prospects of a life partner. In front of me, I wasn't dating anyone, any one seriously. And I began to sort of look at my life. And instead of having a spirit of gratitude for all the good things that were in my life, I began to focus on what I didn't have.

And I thought about, like, Oh, my God, I'm coming up on 30. And I'm not going to be married, I'm still single, and in my community, culture, religious background, you know, family, to be 30 and unmarried there was a stigma associated with you that there was something wrong with her, you know, no one has chosen her. So there must be something wrong with her.

And I was internalizing that, and so instead of appreciating the success and what was working right, I began to implode. And in imploding, you know, I still had the external, she's got it going on stuff going on. But internally, I was a hot mess, hence the title of the book and hence Chapter One of the book where I start off with me at 28 and a half, and I talk about all of the negative things that were going on inside of me, the way I was flagellating myself, the way I had no self love the way I had really no self knowledge and self awareness.

My self awareness was very low. I say if you would have asked me my favorite color at that time, I probably wouldn't have been able to tell you I probably would have gone to my closet and said, Okay, how many blue shirts do I have? How many purple? All right, you know, I've got one more blue than every other color. Let's say blue is my favorite, you know? Because I'm an analytical thinker. Right but really know myself. I didn't really love myself no way.

And that really, I kept wondering why I kept cycling through these bad men, like, you know, I couldn't. I had no, like, I wanted to date I wanted to find Mr. Right quote unquote, and I just kept coming upon these losers. And if I didn't understand them when I later understood that I was attracting to me what I was what I thought myself to be. So I was a ball of negativity. I was attracting what I was at the time, and what was in my heart.

So fast forward, when my heart changed, where my belief about myself began to shift. And there was a process and I talked really about that journey, the journey of learning oneself loving oneself to be oneself unapologetically, which means how do I show up authentically, it's not. When I say be yourself unapologetically doesn't mean I show up and I say what I want, I do what I want. Everyone else be damned. No, that's not what it means to live unapologetically. It means I get to show up authentically, and be good with that. So the journey to go from really self hate. And this feeling of not being enough to get to a place of self love was a process, a healing journey. And I eventually got there.

Analiza: Dr. Shai, the story you're sharing. Again, this book is amazing. So I hope audience you go check it out. It's beautiful. I actually listen to it. So it's a beautiful book. And Dr. Shai's voice is incredibly captivating. And so as we talk about this arc of attracting what was inside, attracting what your heart was, in your heart, your belief about yourself, right self love, self awareness, healing that so that you can then attract what you deserve.

And I know this is your coaching and your speaking that you do a lot of public engagements. I mean, let's talk about that. Because you had said also earlier, failing does not make you a failure, there's a separation. And can you talk about the journey of women because you and I both coach women of color, I'm curious, what do you find is sort of the first step like in this journey, I want, not just this fabulous career, because you can on the outside look like you gotta go in on yet on the inside? You don't. So can you talk about that? Because you and I both support incredibly successful women. What's the first step on this?

Shai: Well, one thing is that I've sort of moved away from calling myself a coach. And I've sort of picked up the label of career life strategist. Because in my journey, and in my conversations, I've realized that women were coming to me not just because they wanted to be coached into being either more successful in their C suite executive role, or they were aspiring to enter a C suite or executive role. As we dug a little deeper, there was always this poll of life, you know, whether it's life with an aging parent, life with children, life with a spouse who's got a demanding job as well. And I want to be located for this promotional role. So life was always intertwined with career.

So being a career life strategist and helping individuals, being able to merge the two in ways that are helped shape their definition of success is something that I have found really meaningful. But whether I call myself a coach or career life strategist, when women come, I have found some of the early work really has to do with, I showed up here because I think I'm failing at my goals and aspirations, or I think I could be doing better to help achieve my goal, or there's something I'm deficient, and I need help. And it's always this place of self criticism.

Do I see a lot of impostor syndrome? You know, I see a lot of women who, like myself, are perfectionists and have it going on in so many areas of their lives, but can only see their deficiencies, right? So how do we then build up and take an asset based approach to how we're going to establish this new relationship and working together? And so we really start off looking at strengths we start off looking at values, we start off really digging into building out that self awareness and finding and labeling those things that we're good at affirming, and starting work on really starting to believe, you know, work on the work of believing that you are those good things that you are and sometimes I find and I think about this with one client in particular, always getting positive affirmation at work, positive affirmation or social positive affirmation from family and friends, but still struggles with the belief that she is good or worthy of being in the role that she's in on having the title that she has, you know, I feel like a fraud. If people really knew what I felt about myself or these areas that I'm deficient in in life, then they wouldn't say these great things about me.

Analiza: Yeah, it's amazing how pervasive that kind of belief is that as much as we're getting accolades from many people throughout our life, that we still think, no, I'm not enough, then I'm thinking about your story in the very beginning, that if we don't have enough affirmation and love, that, when we continue to seek that, especially from our career, we can you got great grades, you went on to get a graduate degree, your doctor now, I mean, that's really affirming. And yet inside, if we don't do the work inside, it's going to continue the hamster wheel, especially as women of color right? It serves us, yes, we're constantly chasing, chasing, that's good for the economy, you know, yeah, working instead of being with our children, or taking care of ourselves. So it's a tough cycle to break. And so starting with this value, and strengths, and you have an amazing like, you have, as you are all these beautiful things, do you see it? So I love, I love that so much.

Shai: As women of color, we often find that sometimes we're in a position where either factually, we walk into a room, and there's a negative perception that may be brought, and it may vary by race, you know, because there's all of these stereotypes, right? By certain women, for black women, it's the angry black woman woman syndrome. So let me see if and when the angry black woman is going to show up in this meeting, right. So then, knowing that you walk into a room and you say, I'm going to be working really hard to make sure that I have measured speech, and that I will show no emotion, or that I'll show only positive emotion.

And we're not showing up, we're not allowed the, we don't have the permission to just be normal, like everyone else in the room, because we're always conscious and sensitive to how we're going to be perceived. And if I'm always in that role before, I think a thought will say a word or take an action, I need to think about how it's going to be received. It delays my growth, my professional growth, it delays my ability to lead, because I'm always questioning not only my actions, and I may be very equipped, and adept at my skill that got me in the C suite role. But now I'm delayed in making decisions, because I'm always concerned and factoring how it will be perceived. So you add that layer on as a woman, and then as a woman of color. That's a struggle, a real challenge.

Analiza: So building on that point, we have the sense that we're not enough that we can prove ourselves with this formula of success, same career. And also we're carrying the mental load, the additional pressure of having to debunk stereotypes. And that is a lot of energy, right, that we're just using toward surviving, instead of looking forward in our career to advance it and head to those C suite roles or the top role. And so is self awareness, right?

Here's how, here's actually what you believe. And here's both ways that you're chasing it, and ways that you are kind of flagellating yourself, and here's a path forward, let's look asset based at what you are rocking at, and how you're using your energy towards things that don't serve you. So let's look at all of that.

And yet, Dr. Shai, this is something you said earlier, there's an intellectual understanding, right? Like we can lay all this out. And at the same time, there's the body, emotion, our response. And so how do you merge the two because if you're coaching me and I'm like, Hey, I get that Dr. Shai, but it's really hard to internalize after many years, a different way of being believing I want to but like I just it's really, really difficult. What do you do with that integration? Especially it's not just a career, right? It's life. It's all of that.

Shai: Yeah. Well, you know, I can speak for me what worked for me, faith in therapy, not religion. I had to leave the you know, I think religion, particularly the religion I grew up in, I think that did more in that area of judgment and have an understanding of God and higher power from a lens of fear and a performance based way of living. Whereas when I began to get on this journey of learning, loving being, I had to learn and embrace a new way of faith, a new understanding of God. And thankfully, I was open to that, and my openness to gaining faith, or some may say, to going on a spiritual journey.

You know, I don't espouse, you know, I am a Christian, but I don't expound or push my faith on anyone. What I do encourage, when I do speak to women, is find a face, find. Because if I had to solely rely on myself as to it and be all, as the All Knowing, I wouldn't be where I am, there needs to be a place that I can turn to when I can't make sense of the world. And not that I will get answers when I turn to that place. But what I do get is peace. And so that is what faith brought me.

And then what therapy has done for me, it's given me a place to work out those issues that surface that are preventative to me, learning, loving, being myself, authentically and unapologetically. And I'll give you an example. Because I always say, I'm still on this journey, I have not arrived. So there are things that still pop up for me, that I take into therapy. And this one thing in particular, I was dealing with the sense of great guilt, like, you know, over like past few months that I've made this pivot out of my C suite executive role.

And now I'm a solopreneur, I'm out here I'm doing this thing with strategies and Better Not Perfect. And I am like, oh, the timing, oh, you know, I'm launching kids and college to college. And, oh, I'm taking this big risk. And I'm shifting all of this weight to my husband, and you know, I'm traveling and I'm, you know, doing and I had just oh, just wouldn't you name it, I just got mired down and guilty. And this guilt was putting me to this place where I was frozen from really taking steps that would really be helpful and productive for me to really advance these efforts, this initiative.

And so sitting in therapy, and therapists really said to me, first of all, she affirmed me, she was like, you know, we've been together while I know you well, you're this, this, this and this person. So the benefit of having a therapist and one that you can be with for a while is that you can have that knowledge, someone else who knows you and gets you. So this is what you are, this is what you're not. So stop having this negative talk to yourself, because I was doing that. And the guilt thing, let's not focus on trying to figure that out today. What it's doing is it's blocking you from taking action. So she says, so when the guilt comes, I want you to acknowledge it, know that you feel it, and then set it aside, set it aside, and we will deal with it here. And when you set it aside, now pick up that next thing that you know, you need to get done, knowing that you're not counting the guilt.

And she gave me that like maybe a couple months ago, and it has worked wonders for me to be able to not be stuck anymore, to you know, get what I need to get done, get back out, stop talking about better never quite get back out start promoting strategies without this sense of what I'm not doing. And maybe I shouldn't have done it, you know, because again, always a perfectionist, right? And so being able to sit it aside and work on it in therapy.

So I haven't forgotten about it, making progress. But I'm still able to show up and do the work. And well most of my clients. I just want to be able to show up and do the work, not carry the emotions that they carry, not carry, whatever, whether it's shame, which we women tend to carry, whether it's insecurity, whether it's imposter syndrome, whether it's, you know, so how do we take those feelings in the moment and say, Okay, I'm still working on figuring out that dealing and debunking this myth with myself that I'm not qualified for this job, you know, because I only met eight out of the 10 criteria in the job qualification list, you know, because that's how we are right. And so the guilt that I have, that I'm not proficient at the other two bullets, let me set that aside.

Let me focus on then let me kill it with these eight and then take the time, you know, not be so worried in the moment that I don't have, I don't know, great excel skills, I don't know, pick your poison, whatever's in the job bullet that you can say, I'm still working on it, set it aside, excel at what you excel at what you gifted at what you know. And then in your, you know, then work on the other things. But don't let those other things stop you from feeling that you don't deserve to be there.

Because you do that you don't have a unique and valuable perspective that contributes to the success of the organization just by being there by your expertise by the lens that you bring as a woman by the value added that you bring as a woman of color. Because you have these intersecting identities that can share so much about either the clients that you serve, the culture of the organization, impacting the climate, for other women and people of color in the organization, you bring so much value, focus on the value, understand the value, appreciate the value, and then let go of the perceptions. You know what other people may think about you, you know, on Fridays to say what other people think about me, it's really none of my business. And I love that because it really is true. It's your business, because your issue, and I'm not going to carry it as my issue. You know, I'm just going to show up here as excellent as I am, and do the work.

Analiza: I want to narrate that because these are steps we can take. One is the work with faith, finding your faith, however, that looks that we don't need to shoulder the burden ourselves that there's our community. But there's also a larger being out there, however you define that. So finding a faith, second therapy, a place that we can allow those things from childhood, those beliefs that don't serve us to recognize them, but then put them aside and have a place to process. Yes, I see that. And then third, to focus our attention and energy on remembering, just as you did as a kid, Dr. Shay, that you have a purpose, there is something beautiful that you can unleash into the world.

And there are many gifts that you have. They're all unique, as a woman of color, that we have gifts, and so stay centered on those gifts. And then fourth, take action with those. It's a place in which it's a cycle, right? It's not like step 1234. I'm done. It's a continuous cycle that Oh, you better right? We're like, Yeah, we've got to get it done. No, no, no. We still face it. I still face it daily. And it's become more I don't know what it's like for you Dr. Shai. But it's become more familiar to say, oh, there you are. Yep, it is scary to send a request. And yet, I'm going to put that aside and go do it. Because I don't have time to fester about whether I should send it or whether they're going to reply whether I'm good enough, like Okay, thank you for that doubt. I'll put it aside. Take action. So would you add anything to that? Dr. Shai, how does that feel to you?

Shai: I love what you said, acknowledge I'm afraid and then decide, do it afraid? Yes. And that's okay. The point is to do it, do it. Do it. Exactly. Yeah, I guess the other thing I would add about purpose, you know, I usually tell my clients and my audience that by faith because of my faith. And because of my analytical side, too, I cannot think that an all knowing, all powerful creator would give us on average 80 years of life and one thing to do.

So shed the notion that you have one thing to do, and just start to see purpose through the lens of it's purpose for season. So what season Am I in right now? And what is my purpose in this season? You know, and that has just taken the weight off of myself and so many other people and women when you say, you know, especially when we put out onto our young undergraduates, and we put so much pressure on them, right? When you're 1718 Tell us what you're going to major in because that's going to be the career that you're going to do for the rest of your life. And then when they graduate 2122, pick your career because that is going to be the thing you do and they've rejected all of that even the Gen Z's millennials, they're bouncing jobs every two, four years, you know, so thankfully, they woke up and rejected that.

And I'm not promoting, you know, job hopping. But what I am saying is that they seem to have been released from this notion of, you know, I have an embrace, to say, I can have this career and then maybe five years later, I can have another career. And it may be five years later, I can have another career. And purpose is more than career, you know, but when we think about vocation, calling, per mission, and the things that we'll do in life around vocation and connect them to profession. It's just good to know it can be seasonal.

Analiza: Whatever release often you're like, what's your purpose? How will you commit your entire life until the day you die towards it? You're like, no, no, let's be the chapter to this purpose. And yes, and how can you embody that and lean in and it might change. Let's not get into this indecision mode, right? Better not perfect. We're not trying to make it. You know this thing. That's the thing forever. And I love that because we gotta stop with the pressure. Yeah, watch it, but I'm like, Where's the fire coming from? Oh, it's actually from me. So let's let that release. Put it aside. Let's go. Yeah. Oh, Dr. Shai, this has been so beautiful. I'm wondering if you're up for lightning round questions.

Shai: Oh, sure. Oh, goodness. All right.

Analiza: Chocolate or vanilla?

Shai: Chocolate.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout ?

Shai: cooking.

Analiza: climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Shai: Jump from a plane.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Shai: Not outside the house no!

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being Mariah Carey?

Shai: Oh, in my mind, I'm killing it. What you hear may be somewhere around five.

Analiza: What's a recent book you read?

Shai: I can't remember the title. But she's talking about love and marriage, and how to have success at boats and how to overcome challenges in both Italia King is the author's

Analiza: Better not perfect. I love that. Embrace it. This is what I can do. There we go. I will look it up. Do not worry. What is your favorite way to practice self care?

Shai: Naps. I'm committed now to just owning when I'm tired and taking guilt free nap during the day, sometimes not every day. But yeah, I used to not be able to take a nap without guilt.

Analiza: What's a good professional development you've done?

Shai: I did a LinkedIn course. And it was my first time that I had done it. And I thought it was fabulous and great. So I did a LinkedIn course on the DISC. because I wanted to know more about the different personality tests that are out there to use and to incorporate into the work that I'm doing.

Analiza: What is your definition of a Boss Mama?

Shai: A woman who can say I am a great executive, or I'm a great manager or I'm a great employee. And I'm a great mom. But rarely am I both on the same day.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Shai: Drop some or all that stuff, girl, it’s not as deep as you are making it. Get out of your own head because you are when you're alone in your own head. You're in a bad neighborhood. And you're spending too much time in bad neighborhoods.

Analiza: Where can we find you like LinkedIn or anywhere else?

Shai: Yeah, you can find me on www.DrShaibutler.com. So that's Dr Shiabutler and I will tell you about upcoming speaking engagements. Now I gotta run and go add some because I just told you all to go to the website. I got to add the ones that I've been delaying putting up. But yeah, speaking engagements, they find out more about whether by the book it's on Amazon and digital print and audio versions. And if you're looking for either a career life strategist or someone that come in and lead retreats, or team building in your organization with your executives, you can find me on stratHERgies.com.

Analiza: And last question, do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts to share?

Shai: Yeah, well, I would say Better Not Perfect has expanded into a podcast now. So we recorded season one we're in studio shortly to record Season Two and season two I'll be bringing in guest I fabulous women and I don't know if I'm going to get the wonderful Analiza this time, but I will certainly get her for season three if I can't catch her for season two. But I'm going to be talking to women who have stories of resilience of power overcoming and where they are on their journey towards better. So to an end there. It's all on YouTube, Apple podcasts and other platforms.

Analiza: Amazing. Dr. Shai, thank you so much for you, for your wisdom, your stories, your book, I just want to double click. It's an amazing book and I love the audible.

Shai: Hold it up, Better Not Perfect from Hot Mess to Life Success, A Woman's Guide to Learning, Loving and Being Herself Unapologetically.

Analiza: Love it. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Shai: Thank you.

Analiza: Hi, thank you so much for carving out time to hear today's podcast. Please, 3 things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, I'm excited to share that we have a new book. It's called the Myths of Success: A Woman of Color’s Guide to Leadership. It's based on the lessons learned of many women of color leaders, including those on this podcast. And you can get a free chapter at analizawolf.com/freechapter. Lastly, we have a Woman of Color Rise program, and it's a six week online cohort program this spring. They'll build relationships with an intimate group of other women of color leaders, and to also walk away with a career growth roadmap and strategies to grow and career. Check out analizawolf.com/course For more information, early bird pricing ends February 9. Thank you so very much.