Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise Podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipina American mom of two, and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the US Air Force. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. We'll be talking with successful CEOs and C suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys. If you're a woman or woman of color, who wants a seat at the table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I'm really happy today to be talking with Isabel Ching. She's the executive director at Hamilton Madison House. It's a nonprofit settlement house which was established in 1898. And it provides a safe home for New Yorkers citywide to thrive. They have a main site in Manhattan's Chinatown, Lower East Side Two Bridges neighborhoods. She has been with Hamilton Madison House for 27 years. She has provided direct services and of course now she's an executive level leader. Isabel in terms of graduate degree, she is a graduate of CUNY Hunter College as well as the Hunter College School of Social Work. Isabel, thank you so much for being here.

Isabel: Thank you Analiza. So thank you for inviting me.

Analiza: 1 So, Isabel, let's start with your identity. And how did your identity growing up shape your career path?

Isabel: Well, I will start with the fact that I grew up in Brooklyn, but born in South America, and pretty much I would say, went to schools in this country because I came here very young. But I lived in a very, I would say, Caucasian neighborhood, mostly Irish and Italian and probably Norwegian, ethnic families in that neighborhood. And I think the first time I ever noticed I was like Asian, or something, someone who's different was when I first moved out to upstate New York, my parents who came to this country from South America, we were the only Asian family in that neighborhood. And then moving to Brooklyn after five years, realizing that it's also another Caucasian neighborhood, I think in second or third grade, I was being bullied by a young girl. And knowing that I think I was a victim of being bullied because I was Asian. And I think that's what made me notice I was a little different. I also was very quiet. And also, the school sent me to ESL classes. So I was taking ESL classes. I didn't know because you're a young kid, you went with everyone who seemed like an immigrant in that classroom, but all of us spoke English. So I don't know why they sent us to a classroom. Maybe because we were shy, we didn't speak as well or we didn't speak up. So maybe that's my first time I noticed I was a little different or treated differently.

Analiza: So Isabel, you had mentioned being born in South America. And yet you're also Asian, and then moving and realizing that, oh, I'm of Asian descent, when you're in school with this terrible bullying incident? Can you just talk about how people have a narrative that if you emigrate from another country? And you're Asian? Well, obviously, you must have gone from Asia directly to the United States. So can you share a little bit about that career path? Because of that family path? Because often people make that assumption, but actually, there are many ways that Asians arrived in America. Could you share yours?

Isabel: Sure. Let me just go back to my father and my parents leaving China, first of all, I think during the communist revolution, and then moving to Hong Kong, and actually escaping to Hong Kong, and Hong Kong was not even it was during a time when there were really no jobs. People were really hungry, couldn't work, not given any opportunity and they wanted to work, but they just can't find any jobs and they can't feed the families if there's no income. My mother was very fortunate. He opened the factory during the prices in Hong Kong, but his business didn't do well. But when he married my mother, my mother's family had relatives already established in South America. And that's how her family helped my father migrate to Bogota, Colombia, and that's where he started to work.

His background was in dye making, so that's why he was able to go with the profession doing the work that he was doing and working Within Columbia, making dolls, that's what he was doing. He was working in a doll factory. He stayed there for a few years. And he happened to see me reading an international newspaper. And they were looking for dye makers in America, because this was a trade that many people had that skill set. And the company sponsored us to this country. And this is where it started with my father, having the opportunity to come to America working in upstate New York. And then that's how our immigration started from China, to Hong Kong, South America to America, because I think, and this is when I look at the situation here, migrants coming now, right? How we all want a better life. And that's what my father wants to do his and my mother wanted to do is build a better life for all of us

Analiza: Thanks, Isabel for sharing that history, from China, to Hong Kong, to Colombia, to New York, and this desire throughout your family to find ways to keep your family alive through a job, but also to find opportunity. And it's wonderful that your dad had a skill that America needed. It's amazing. I have the same story with my parents having a skill that America needed and how they pulled that resource, that skill. And that's how I ended up being born here. And you moved here, and so let's talk about your schools. And you've mentioned the bullying, having to go to ESL, even though you spoke English, which is ridiculous, but unfortunately, a common experience for immigrant children. I'm wondering about Isabel, in the demographics, and you'd mentioned, you know, the type of community you're part of Norwegian. And you mentioned earlier, when we talked, as well as Italian what how did that affect your view of yourself, going to school with, you know, more of a white crowd.

Isabel: I love my neighborhood. I grew up in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. I love the town, it was very charming, very safe, and going to school. Like I said, you know, I think because of the fact that I speak English, well, I didn't have an accent. I simulated faster. I was more thought to be part of the group. But I can see when there were newer immigrants to the school. They were treated differently or separately.

But for me, I think I assimilated in a way that was easier because of my language skills, and that I cultivated to the American culture quicker. I mean, I grew up watching Flintstones, I grew up watching, you know, I Love Lucy. And so happy days, everything that happened in saw on TV I was able to catch on.

So the influences of Western has been part of me, but there was always an internal thing, a yearning for me that, you know, I still want to keep my identity as an Asian American, I still want to speak Chinese, I still want to eat Chinese food, and keep the cultures and the traditions of my family. So that's what made it a little different. And I realized that it was when sushi came out in my high school years, like Isha Shamy. And it was so different. That was like my first experience seeing Asian food become a little bit more, I would say, like fancier transport transferring over as a real, true authentic Asian meal to be accepted, or at least tried to be accepted by the Western culture. Because a lot of times Asian food is always Americanized, right? Food is Americanized, for that reason. So it's for the Western palate, but that was my first day. So my identity has always been like this dichotomy of externally, Western, but internally, always being Asian.

Analiza: Okay, let's talk about this because it's not often or it's not assumed that when you meet a person who has a background that's from a different country, let's be specific with Asian backgrounds, there's this spectrum, right? One spectrum is I'm gonna say Asian, I speak my language because of my people and stay as close to my Asian roots as possible. Some of our aunts, you know, our older population has done that, including my own family. And then on the other side, it's a reassurance or assimilation, but to the nth degree. Let me only speak English. It looks like I'm unhappy these days. I'm Lucy and I Love Lucy. I don't. I'm American, not from my country, or Chinese or Filipino or whatever else. And you're, you knew it sounded like as a young person that you wanted to have both outwardly fitting in being part of the Western culture and being in the know, but then inwardly staying close to your Asian Chinese roots. Can you talk about how you'd like because it sounds so romantic, right? But it's hard to do, especially with all the pressure to be you know, quote, unquote, American. Can you do a story or do you have an experience or anything to share with us that helps bring that to light

Isabel: I think that, you know, luckily, I think that night when I was growing up, there were also people of different ethnicities. So there were also Koreans, there were also Middle Eastern communities growing, living or moving into the community. So it seemed to always be that I was more, I guess, attracted or prone to finding friends who are Asian, or ethnically Asian, we understand talk to each other. And then also finding friends who are also maybe non Asian, but having an open list about who we were, and obviously, you know, accepting, but then you think back, why should we accept we should be, this is our community, right. But I think that has always been what I always look for someone to be very open minded about the world and not be so closed minded. I think a lot of times being brought up in these boroughs of New York City, we think New York City, we should be a melting pot or diversity is amazing. People are, you know, should be accepting. But that's not always true. If you look at boroughs, where we all live, in particularly where I grew up in Brooklyn, it was very small, it was an enclave and there was an enclave that was really setting its own world. So if you really want to see more diversity, you have to go up to man, that's how we always felt. We felt like the city was where the place had more of the culture, more acceptance was there, not so much in the outer boroughs and the playoffs and the auto Pro. So I think that's why I went to Hunter College because I chose a school that was going to be in New York City, Manhattan. So I chose a path that I felt like it could help me understand who I am, my culture, the environment I grew up in. A lot of the things were always in my head, but no one can explain it to me. I didn't know who to ask these kinds of questions. So I think going into Hunter helped me explore a little bit more about myself, my culture, and the environment that I grew up, grew up in.

Analiza: What did you major in? I know you did social work.

Isabel: Sociology.

Analiza: Sociology, oh, my goodness.

Isabel: And that's because when I took my first you know, you have to all take your one on one classes, right? philosophy, psychology, that actually opened my mind when I took sociology 101, my professor, she was this Jewish American woman. And Professor Schlesinger, I remember her and she was amazing. She was funny, she was a caricature. She played the roles and parts and really opened my eyes and really wanted to dive into this work, social work. And she told a story about what makes the Kennedys different from ethnic groups. And she talked about how they were stoic, and they didn't cry when the President was there, when they had the funeral procession that they had to keep themselves stolen, you know, and how it's so different from different cultures and how ethnicities grieve differently. So that kind of open I was like, Oh, wow, she has a point. And I think that kind of helped me open my mind about many things.

Analiza: Isabel, I hear a few things. So I'd really like to stamp it about how you were able to maintain a connection to American culture, as well as your own family culture and your heritage. Its first that you were thoughtful about who to be in community with people who not only were of different ethnic backgrounds, but have had an open mindset. Second, I heard you being intentional about finding a place where it was diverse, as well as exploring more about society and your culture. And you found that place in Manhattan at Hunter. And then third, it was being inspired by this professor and then choosing social work, so that you could better understand people as connected to their families, and how they were brought up. And it's interesting, because as the executive director for Hamilton and Madison House, and having been there for 27 years, and having to fundraise, right to maintain the viability of your organization, can you talk about being an Asian American woman at the helm of this work? How does that play into because I had a really beautiful view of you as a young girl and then as a college student, and your young adult years, but how does that play into your role as an Executive leader? How have you been able to be in frankly, white spaces? Because we do know that funds come from pretty white supremacist spaces. So we do need to operate there often to be able to get our funding but yet stay true to yourself as an Asian American woman, Chinese American woman can you share about that?

Isabel: Yeah, like we were just saying about choosing with intention. I think one of my decisions was maybe with that real, like critical thinking but it was always a gut feeling like This is what I should be doing. Or this is the direction I should be going, or this is what I should be studying. And so a lot of times it was just more instinctual and just gut feeling and opportunities. So I think that's what guided me to the path here.

And then, you know, the question about, you know, working hard, and that's always been ingrained in my upbringing is just work hard. And I did see it that you work hard, you reap the benefits, but not all the time, because you could work hard, and you feel that there are things that you can't control. And that is when you're faced with people with three assumptions about who you are, and that you're a woman, you can't make those kinds of decisions, or you're Asian, you wouldn't understand what we're doing. Or so I think, along the road, working hard, finding the people who saw me as you know what, and this is very interesting.

So when I started very early on doing this work, another executive director said to me, your rising stars about and I'm like, okay, and he actually, this is the first time someone ever said that to me. So I think it's very important to have good mentors in your life who believe or see things in you that you don't really see in yourself. I know that sounds so cliche and common, but it is very true. You do need mentors, you do need people to help guide you and give you opportunities. I could work as hard as I can, but you don't have an opportunity. There is really no next steps, there's no open door to allow you to do the things that you can do to make those big decisions for an agency sometimes, you know, I really don't even realize the breadth of what I like, wow, this is a big agency, but it's a midsize agency. But it's like, wow, you know, making decisions for this is a $20 million agency, and I'm making HR decisions, or I'm making strategic decisions, I'm going out meeting people outside externally and internally making having influence and I think really don't realize that sometimes about what we do that influences others. But that brings it back to who was allowing me to make those who's giving me that opportunity. So it's also the same thing, right? I'm making these when I make decisions here that influence and affect other people here.

Analiza: So a few things I heard, to be able to stay true to both the reality of working in the space that we do often whitespaces. And then also staying true to our authentic self is first making sure that we are intentional. And as we go through life, trusting our gut, trusting our instincts and making decisions accordingly. Second, surrounding ourselves with people who can support us, because the reality is that when we work hard, that's not enough, we need people to open doors. And you had a specific Ed, who had told you held up a mirror and said, You're a rising star. And that's a great example of without people who are holding up the mirror, it's hard to see that we truly are very talented and have a lot to offer. So that's one of the things I heard. And the third thing I heard is that we need to step up to these opportunities. And we actually can make these hard decisions like with you running your $20 million organization, fundraising and spaces having impact people allow us opportunities, but we also allow other people's opportunities. So I love that so much, because it's this sense that I can maintain myself, my culture, and be able to receive support, and then also be able to give support.

Isabel: Yeah, you summarized it very well.

Analiza: I want to talk about your ability to be in spaces and network as an ad. It's a very important skill, as you know. And often that's something that I've struggled with, personally is how to get in these spaces and put your game face on and get what the organization needs. And it feels like such a heavy weight. And yet this is something that you have to do to maintain your organization, and stay true to who you are, as well as your culture. So can you talk about that? How has that journey been for you, especially having done it for so long at HMH?

Isabel: So I will say that I think that all of us have been through our life who have to seek external help. Because when we just keep thinking, This is who we are, this is what we can only do, actually someone else can help you even do it better. Because there's a different reflection of who you are as again, someone externally also sees you in a different way. And I think I've been working on basically now doing this job for the last seven years. I feel like my next step right now is about the external been working so internally and working and making things so working so hard to make sure things are perfect and structures are being made here infrastructures, tightening the infrastructure, but I feel like my next move is external.

So to your question, I am looking right now for external people, who can help me know how to do it externally. So it's not easy. So some of the things I learned through this path is also to always look for consultants, find good consultants who can help you because that's what they do their work the best. And when they do the work is so finite, their work is so specific that it can help you do that better. So I'm working on my external presentation. And I think it's important for that too, but I still know that accepting of who I am, and I can't help it sometimes I'm very giggly and I am, you know, I joke around, and I move my hands in my head all the time. So, but that's who I am. So that's just a sample of something like that. What if they tell me, you know, what you need to do this, you need to do that. I'll listen with a grain of salt, but I still need to modify who I am. And that's always been life. Everything I listened in life is always this is more made for this culture of Caucasians of different ethics of ethnic people normally, okay, I now have to tweak it again, for myself, you know, do it what I think it's important for me, so I'm looking to do that I'm looking to be a little bit more external, then I'm, I generally am a very, I think, internal person. So being external is not very easy. And then also presenting myself in a view that's like, wow, that is about like, I'm generally not like that. But now I have to think of doing it that way. Because sometimes that's what the world you have one shot. That's what the world looks at. And I need to hone those kinds of skills better.

Analiza: So Isabel, I hear you saying a few things. If we want to get better at networking, and putting ourselves out there first is it doesn't have to be your superpower. Yes, it's necessary for the organization. But we can get help. It doesn't have to rely on our superhuman strength to find that. So one, get help find an expert, get a consultant. They're designed to do this. So it's great. Second, when we get advice, that doesn't mean we have to take it all. Yes, they have expertise, but we can take what makes sense for us and still be authentic. And third, it's when we need to get on stage or make the ask or deliver. You've got our one shot. And that's about trade offs. How much do I want to lean toward? Let's call it a simulation? And how much do I want to lean toward being my gangly self, which by the way, can be very endearing as you are to me being very authentic? So, Isabel, I want to talk about that third point, because that's the rub, right? We can say get help choose. But can you talk about, for example, have you had any examples in the past, and you don't have to tell us the names, but here was a funder, or here was a big beating, or who was a big presentation, and I could have, you know, been really authentic? And I wasn't or I could have been really, you know, if you call it white, let's name it, right. There's like white supremacy and then there's our own, sometimes not aligned with that, often not aligned with that. And so we have to choose. So can you share with us an example of a time when you needed to make a choice and you learned a certain way? Can you share that?

Isabel: Well, you know, I guess one thing you learn about is knowing your audience, right? So know your audience who you're presenting to. And I've actually been really most of my presentations, I don't know, but they always asked me, Can you talk about diversity? I'm like, I am the diversity. And if you want me to talk academically, I don't know if I'm the expert, I could just talk from my experience. Right. So where do I get called to talk about my expertise, which is my job? It's more about can you talk about diversity all the time? And that's like, Okay, I don't know. No, I like I could talk about it. But it's always something when people will get me it's more like, can you fill in that hole that we need? So your appearance is Asian, and you speak well, so people can understand what you're saying. And so you're right for that. So they're already picturing me of someone that they're looking for as what they think should be an Asian face. They're ready, pigeonhole. And in that situation, and sometimes I'm not really called to do my real work, you know, I'm, like, what I do management, you know, the field that the work that I do so, so it's very interesting. You just brought it to my attention, because I thought it was like, yeah, when did they last this? And the last thing was about diversity again, I feel like I'm expired. But I can only talk from experience. So yeah, I think it's true.

You know, I failed one time I remember. And I think all the time. It's because of my own anxiety of having to be prepped to always be ready. And to always know as well. Yes, say something interesting, something unique to be putting up precious things like writing that first sentence of your essay. What are you going to say? And it's like, I'm stuck there because I feel like what do I have to say? That's gonna be grabbed, you know, that will grab the attention of people. But, uh, why? Why do we have to have that pressure to do that? And I think it's because we put it on ourselves to be different, we treat it differently, then we have to show like, okay, we're different. But how fascinating and different can we be? So I think that has to do with owning it, also proving it. So a lot of these things. I think, just internally, it has been internalized for me, in some way, I guess.

And I think one time I failed miserably, because I was just a new mother. And I didn't have enough time to prepare for my next presentation. And I stayed up all night, my son had a fever. And when I had to do a presentation, I was so terrible, because I didn't have the prep time, so I wasn't able to do it. And there was actually a way to an audience of Asian Americans, I'm not the smartest person, I'm not the most eloquent, you know, the speaker. But just being who you are, is most important, just to show who you definitely are, you know, my personality is just what it is.

Analiza: So, Isabel, in your role as the lead of Hamilton Madison House, there are choices to be made. And when we need to make trade offs, you have really helpful advice. The first is to know your audience know what they want, sometimes it's not what you want. But at least we know what they want to be able to have time to know and prepare yourself. And that's helpful because at least we can put attention to it. And the third thing is, at the end of the day, be yourself so that we can put a lot of pressure on ourselves to deliver the perfect thing or be extraordinary. But actually, our power is in being authentic. So I hear that coming loud and clear.

Isabel: There's only so much you can control, right, and you could beat yourself so hard. But what you can't control is what people think about you, you have to also know how to move ahead of it, and know that, Okay, this time, maybe not this person, but next time, maybe I can make a hit, maybe this other person will have a different perspective, and you're hoping that you're gonna hit that right person. And that's like, that has the same thing to do with working hard that people will appreciate what you do, and know that you're working hard and you will stand out. And it's the same thing, like you're hoping that you're going to find that right person who's going to get you and understand where you're coming from. And we'll give you that chance and opportunity. And we'll listen to your story and say, hey, you know what, I want to give her an opportunity. I want to give her a chance, I believe in what she says. And you know what, she's been doing this for 27 years. I mean, definitely, this girl knows what she's doing. And you know, it's just sometimes, you know, we may not be the richest agency, but we do definitely, I pride myself in doing like, in quality work, making sure we give it from the beginning and making sure that we do things, you know, to culminate to make sure quality of services is what we say that we do. So true to our words, and our actions to show it to

Analiza: The example that you shared is of not delivering the way that you wanted to deliver that shows us we can make a mistake that we can fail. That doesn't define us. And that we'll have another opportunity with our hard work and dedication, especially with your track record. 27 years. That's what matters. So I appreciate it. Because it gives us some grace that we don't have to be this diamond all the sparkly as we can that we are a diamond but yet we can be ourselves and actually that's the best way to sparkle. So thank you for that Isabel. Are you ready for lightning round questions?

Isabel: Yeah, I guess. Yes. Good.

Analiza: All right. First question: chocolate or vanilla.

Isabel: Oh, good chocolate. That's easy.

Analiza: Cooking or take out?

Isabel: Take out.

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane.

Isabel Ching 29:03 I've done both jump from a plane. So I guess jumping a plane again.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Isabel: Rarely?

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of 1 to 10? 10 being Mariah Carey?

Isabel: I love karaoke. Six.

Analiza: What's your favorite way to practice self care?

Isabel: Recently, I've been doing hot yoga for the last nine months and I really fell in love with it.

Analiza: What's your definition of a boss mama?

Isabel: Who knows how to be accepting of yourself. Go with winging things like just what it is and then having battling because taking care of yourself. I think it's important. You know, I think when I first became a mother, if you don't take care of yourself, you can be good for anyone. I think that's really more important than anything else, not losing yourself.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Isabel: I think I would have said to myself is the more, take more risk? take more risk. Don't worry about what people have to say to you or say about you. But take those risks take more risk.

Analiza: And where can we find you? Like LinkedIn anywhere else?

Isabel: I am so bad with social media. But I think LinkedIn is the only one. So that's something I have to work on fixing my LinkedIn page. But no, I don't have any place else other than finding me and my agency working.

Analiza: And last question, Isabel, do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts to share?

Isabel: I think it's important that people just do things that make you happy. And then when you do that, you can lead a better and happier fulfilling life. I think that's really happiness, even though people might think that's relative, but if you're not able to strive for that, then I don't think then you're going to look at your job not being fulfilled you then they're going to look at your life being fulfilled, so striving to know what your happiness is and making sure you make that point to have it.

Analiza: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Isabel.

Isabel: Thank you so much Analiza i think, hopefully to see you soon.

Analiza: Hi, thank you so much for carving out time to hear today's podcast. Please, 3 things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, I'm excited to share that we have a new book. It's called the Myths of Success: A Woman of Color’s Guide to Leadership. It's based on the lessons learned of many women of color leaders, including those on this podcast. And you can get a free chapter at analizawolf.com/freechapter. Lastly, we have a Woman of Color Rise program, and it's a six week online cohort program this spring. They'll build relationships with an intimate group of other women of color leaders, and to also walk away with a career growth roadmap and strategies to grow and career. Check out analizawolf.com/course For more information, early bird pricing ends February 9. Thank you so very much.