Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise Podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipina American mom of two, and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the US Air Force. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. We'll be talking with successful CEOs and C suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys. If you're a woman or woman of color, who wants a seat at the table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I'm very excited to be talking with Dolores Johnson. She is an esteemed author. And in her 35 year career she has had many positions including Vice President of International Marketing at Fortune 100 tech companies. We'll be talking about her memoir, which is an award winning memoir on race mixing in America called Say I'm Dead: a Family Memoir of Race, Secrets and Love. And it's won several awards. It's available on Amazon bookshop, other bookstores, and she can also be found on doloresjohnson.com. Background about where she's gone to school. She's a proud graduate of Howard, a historically black college and holds an MBA from Harvard Business School. Dolores, wow, what an introduction. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

Dolores: And happy to be here. Thank you for your kind words,

Analiza: Dolores. I want to talk about your book first, because that's how I was able to meet you. And you talk about how having a black father and a white mother and then running off they grew up in or they met in Indianapolis, Indiana, and we're not allowed by law to marry. And yet they did find love and therefore ran. And with your mother, you weren't able to connect with your white side. So can you just share with the audience what sparked this whole search?

Dolores: When I was in my 30s, the roots creative started in America and everybody wanted to know their background. And so I went down to Alabama to meet a great aunt, who could fill in some of the blanks that my family in Buffalo couldn't. And of course, she spilled a lot of beans. And I found out that every family has lots of secrets, she told some of them. But when I wrote down all the information, I had about six generations of my black side of my family tracing back to the African who came on a slave ship to Virginia. But the most stunning thing on that chart was that there was only one white person on my family tree. And that was my mother. And then the light bulb went off that she had to be from somewhere and somebody but I didn't know who and it started me on a quest to find my white family.

Analiza: Dolores, I was able to read your memoir and it's quite a page turner learning about you and how you grew up and people thinking you're a certain race or not race or asking you questions, sometimes inappropriate questions, and I’m curious Dolores because we'll be talking about your business side. Was there a point when you found yourself in this crossroads of my race is playing a role in how I'm perceived?

Dolores: Well, there was quite a bit of feedback from society about my race. In our house, we didn't talk much about being a mixed race family, because my parents wanted to shield us from outside opinions about interracial ism. And of course, having been born in the 40s there was quite a disregard for the race mixing. As a matter of fact, we were called mom girls and abominations. But even though there were many instances where race was made an issue for me, I went to historically black university, Howard University, where I was called in by the chair of the department and told that I had been offered a fellowship for a summer program by the Rockefeller Foundation to go to Cornell and study advanced economics. And when I got there, I found economics. That was not what I wanted to do for the next six years of study. But there was a black grad student there who talked to me about my future. And it was a time when affirmative action was coming into play in the United States. And people were beginning to wake up to the notion that minorities had been excluded from the games, all the games. And I was fortunate enough after that experience, to be accepted into Harvard Business School, which launched my business career

Analiza: To go from Howard, which is a wonderful university then to Harvard. I'm curious, what was the reception? Like? Because the one is hopefully welcoming of your identity? I'm not sure what if there was a big pivot. Can you talk about that?

Dolores: Yeah, it was a night and day experience, because I went to Howard in the 60s when Black Power was on the rise. And there were Freedom Riders, and we had all kinds of political speakers around race consciousness on that campus. And then I went to Harvard, where in a class of 950, there were about 25 black people, and only 13 Girls, was that double whammy of being a female and black in a sea of people whose parents were Senators, CEOs, all manner of influential, educated, wealthy types. And I really had to bind my feet to make it Harvard.

Analiza: What would you say? Dolores, I'm thinking about how I've been in spaces where people, for example, my elementary school, they look like me, people from my neighborhood who had similar social economic background, which was low income, and in many ways that was affirming because there were not big differences between us. But then the poor schooling is the reason why we had to end up moving. And so for me, I'm thinking about how I moved to a much more quality school. But then with affluent students and neighbors, I felt out of place. I'm wondering for you, how did you find your people? How did you find a home? How did you survive a pretty intense two year experience?

Dolores: In grad school, we've been, largely the black students and the women stuck together, they had study groups, which were really essential to hashing through the cases every night, and being prepared to present a discussion the next day. But we were shut out of all the study groups, we were never invited to any of the parties. And there are lots of parties going on in outings off campus, but we were never invited. And so we stuck together. There were a few other people on campus that we may have had relationships with, but they were limited. And it was Howard really, that gave me my footing. Because there, we had been exposed to all manner of positive thinking about our futures. And we knew that we were educated well, and Harvard has a statement that they don't make admissions mistakes. And I took them at their word that I was there because I belong here. Even though I had actual class members who challenged me and asked me what I was doing here, and then I had stolen their friend's seat. And so all of that goes on. And I think that people still face some of those things today. It's very discouraging when I talk to, especially young women of color, professional women, who tell me some of the same stories I could tell them from 50 years ago,

Analiza: It's really motivating Dolores to hear you talk about how you know Harvard doesn't make admissions mistakes. I'm here, I belong here. This is my seat. I deserve the seat. And yet, as you mentioned earlier, women of color still struggle with that feeling, even if they're not getting as explicitly harassed, or even if we are, how do we remind ourselves? You know, it sounds like you had and I read your book, really beautiful upbringing, very supportive, in what ways in the present tense as an adult can remind ourselves? Do you have any suggestions for that?

Dolores: I think you have to keep your eye on the prize, choose a certain path because it's what you want to do. And because you believe you can, and you have to look ahead beyond what today's drama might be, to where it is you're going. And even though racial or misogynistic incidents may happen, you have to realize that there are many kinds of calamities that can go on in life and you still make your way. And so you have to have a resolve, you have to be sure that you can stand up and if you can't initially stand up, you have to make yourself stand up and put on your poker face and get what you want, what you came for, get what you came for. Nobody can tell you who you are, or what you're capable of. You decide that for yourself.

Analiza: I really appreciate the specific advice that even though we might feel like this is the only moment in our lives, it's actually just one and if we zoom up, we can see that there is much more in our head and if we could stay focused on what matters when we really want that. This is just another jump in the road. And to keep going, that really gives perspective because really, if we see each hiccup as being all end all, it's going to be quite a long, long road. So I appreciate that perspective. When you were going through Harvard, or even in your career did you have like a tribe of people who you can talk to, you could talk to about this ridiculousness that you're folk that you're facing, with people pushing back on your seat, or microaggressions, who are the people who could find community with,

Dolores: You have to have a try, because you do need to air out your feelings, you do need to seek other opinions, try out ideas of what you're thinking of doing, not doing. And one of my best tribesmen was my husband. Because we used to come home at night and say, Well, I've got this big meeting coming up on Thursday. And this is what the agenda is supposed to look like. I don't know what all the hidden agendas are. But let's figure that out. And what's the best way for me to get my point across and to persuade people to the information that I'm presenting, and we would practice, we would present to each other in the dining room, we had flip charts in those days, not PowerPoints. And we would say, Well, no, don't use that word, use this word. Or you remember, you told me that person X is going down this lane? How are you going to address those that are heading off and really try to anticipate all the twists and turns before you get to the meeting. The other thing was to go and meet with people who you don't think are in the boat with you, and talk them into it before you get in the room in front of everybody else. But I had other friends too. I had a circle of friends who were not necessarily business women in the same sense that I was, but who pumped each other up on so many other levels, you know, there was laughter and understanding and acceptance, which was a balm for the soul. But then, of course, I did have people in the corporate structure that I could talk to as well. And they were essential to finding out what else was going on behind the curtain. And there's always something going on behind the curtain that they might know about. Because they're in a different department or at a different level. And who can help you kind of see a different picture about where you're headed.

Analiza: I find that so fascinating that we're talking about how to move work forward, how to move projects forward, how do you move yourself forward, because of what you just shared with me Dolores, although I also went to business school at Northwestern Kellogg School, I didn't learn that, like I didn't learn that, yes, you should have a network. Yes, you should have people to be able to have friendships with. But the idea of anticipating how people receive my message where you can head people off, when you know that there's going to be a rough issue, and then getting ahead of it anticipating being ready. Where did you learn this? Was it from your husband? Where did you get these types of skills, because it's so behind the scenes yet essential?

Dolores: I learned it in the school of hard knocks. Hmm. You know, many times when I first started in corporate America, people didn't listen to me. I think because I was a woman and I was a minority, I would be in conference rooms with up to say 18 or 20 people, and it would be the only person that wasn't a white male. And you know, I would sit at home and prepare all this with my husband, and have charts ready and rationales ready. And I would present them and people would just continue talking as if I wasn't there. And a lot of these guys were six foot four, you know, 44 long suits. And when I stood up, they towered over me.

So one day, I was so frustrated, I stood up on my chair, which made me taller than them and said, I said that an hour ago, and you're not paying attention to what I'm saying. And I want you to listen to me now. Because I'm tired of this. After that, it was different. Amazing. So I want to tell people out there, especially women, that they must speak up.

And being married with the advice of my husband. He told me one day said, Dolores, you are in a world of men. And you need to know how to talk like a man. Don't talk like a woman. Because women will give you a lot of detail before they come to the question. Men don't want that. They want the headline first. And if they need the detail that asked for it, speak in headlines. You know, I practiced doing that for a long time until I could come in and say this is the problem and this is what I think the solution should be. And then they can ask me questions. After that, that was one thing, he sat me down and had me watch football games, and made me understand the game so that when men were talking about problem solving in terms of football, and run, and make it to the endzone when they talked in terms of war, you know, there were so many analogies that were unfamiliar in female conversation that I learned to utilize. And one mistake I made when I was thinking over this idea was, I was trying to explain to this team of engineers and lawyers and salespeople and regulation teams, all these people how to work together, I use the analogy of an orchestra. And they looked at me like I had lost my mind, they didn't follow at all. But then when I put it to them, in terms of battalion, or a third baseman, they got it immediately.

Analiza: So amazingly, male with that example, thank you for sharing. And thank you for being honest. Because Dolores, the reality is that as much as we want people to be authentic, and to use their orchestra, or whatever it is analogies that we do need to understand who we're working with, how the game works, and how to play. Otherwise, we can't even rise, which is what you've done.

Dolores: You are so correct, because it took me probably, I don't know, six or eight years to really figure out that this secret sauce was 60% politics and 40% work. If you don't know what the game is, you can't play. If you don't know how to play. Well, you can't win. Better learn that early.

Analiza: Can you talk about the politics that you've shared about how to navigate behind and understand how you communicate? Who are the players? How to anticipate where you're gonna get a cut off? Is that all politics? Or is there more to politics, when you say 60%, that's quite large.

Dolores: It's huge. Well, a lot of it is relationships. And if you go to work, and you feel isolated, left out, ignored, whatever, you don't have good relationships, it's through relationships, that you find out what's going on, there's going to be a new division opens, don't focus on X, you don't know that if you're not in the game, maybe that's something you would really like to do. But if you know who is making those kinds of plans, and you're able to have a coffee with them from time to time. And another thing I did, I needed a mentor when I first started working in a major corporation, and there was a guy who I interacted with, you know, who was above me, who seemed to like my work and was friendly towards me. And I went into his office at the end of the day when the building was clearing out. And I had some material that I showed him, he didn't ask for it. But I took it to him. And I said to him, Well, since you're my mentor, I thought you'd like to see this. And he said yes. And after that he was my mentor. And he was person who told me before the company was splitting up that they recorded do so and these are going to be the major pieces that gave me a chance to figure out how I wanted to maneuver in that change. So relationships is very big, and having lunch or coffee or you know, thinking of something that might be helpful to somebody that they didn't ask for and taking it to them keeps you top of mind, the person who goes to work and just does their job and goes home is not going to advance into executive ranks. And of course, you know, when you come from middle and lower income backgrounds, you're told to do your best beyond time, right? Do a good job? Well, if you want to work at the post office, that's what they want. If you want to rise to the executive ranks, you'd have to be a leader, you have to know how to build relationships, you have to know how to innovate and offer something that they haven't thought of that they need. You have to be behind the scenes, working all of the angles that you can possibly imagine. So that effort that you're putting in is going to amount to your advancement. As one of the boss told me nobody cares about how your career turns out, except you. That was a lightbulb for me because I thought, Oh, I'm doing all this great work and they're going to reward me. Well, not necessarily.

Analiza: That is a truth right there. People think as long as I do a good job, everything will work out for me. And that is absolutely solves. Unless you've gotten to this like spiritually amazing leader who's going to shepherd you through it's not that's not how corporate works.

Dolores: It isn't. And when in an era where you see so many layoffs, you come to realize that all of those extra hours, all those weekends, all those trips taken on a spur of the moment where you had to arrange childcare and flash wood, and all of these things that interrupted your life. Don't mean anything to the company. Because they've got a goal which is to make a profit and to maximize the profit in Whatever your job is, doesn't contribute to that future vision. They don't mind money anymore.

Analiza: Job security is not a thing. So we need to be careful and be ready.

Dolores: And that means to be flexible. Because probably your day will come when you get laid off, I've been laid off. And what are you going to do? Have you got some context outside of the company? Are you keeping up with trends? Are you learning new skills? Are you watching what's hot in the market that you could slide into? proclear

Analiza: One question we have for your Dolores is speaking up, and that there's a risk to it. Because I hear you say, let's make sure you have relationships that you're navigating that you have ideas that you are finding mentors showing them value. And can you talk more about the risk of speaking up? And why is it worth it?

Dolores: Yeah, speaking up can be a risk absolutely depending on what you say and how you say it. Of course, for me, I am kind of scrappy in my life. And I don't mind taking a risk. But one thing that I emphasized a lot in my career was trying to promote diversity, which was not popular. And as one of President, one of the companies I work told me, Well, when we're flush with money, we could pay attention to that, but not now.

So I had established diversity committees. I have called meetings with senior management to push a point around diversity. And I'm sure that may be going on. But it's a personal mission or obligation that I adopted at Howard University, where we were trained, that we were not there just for our own education, but to lift our race, and that we were the leaders of that effort. And I have lived that all my life. And so to make sure that people coming up behind me got their fair shake, I did speak up.

As far as other kinds of speaking up. There was another incident where I had a friend, one of my relationships was in the payroll department. And the company I worked for had a common anniversary date. So everybody in the company got their review and their pay information on the same day. And she called me one day and said, I'm looking at these figures that are gonna come out on the common anniversary date. And you out of hundreds of people have the same level that you do in this mammoth company, or read it number one, like, oh, they see me in love we do you said, but your pay is dramatically below all of Whiteman. Wow, there were no other black women. So I said how much she said serious money. And then she said to me, it's on you out. I don't know anything about it. You didn't get this from me. And she came up. Looks like I'm killing myself for what?

I talked over with my husband. And we rehearsed what I was going to say because I wasn't going to let that go. Why am I going to work and be rated number one out of hundreds of people and getting a wage? Yes. So my boss presented me with my race and he told me that I had done outstanding work, you know, so happy with all my projects, blah, blah, blah. And when I learned the figure, it was not even what I would have expected from the low rate I was already making. So my husband, I had already decided that after I made my speech, I might get fired or shuffled off into purgatory somewhere in the bottom company. But I was going to do it anyway. Because I was so mad.

I told my boss. Well, I thank you, you know, for your faith in my work and for this race. But I wanted to tell you that this raise, and my base pay as it is now is so far away from people, all these white men around here are making that I can't accept this. And he turned what blush read, you know, he didn't know what to do. He was angry. He was surprised. And I said to him, I want this rectified. I want to make more, and all these other people in this department, because I deserve it. And he's all the money's been already allocated as the common anniversary day and it's done. I said, No, it's not done. And as big as this company is and the way it spends money on all kinds of things. I know there's some more money somewhere, and I want my money. And if I don't get it from you, I'm gonna go over your head. And then I said to him, some people would find this discriminatory. Next week I had my money. Good for you. Now that was a big risk. Yeah. Picking up hazardous risks.

Analiza: I want to both celebrate. And also double click on that point that speaking up has risks because I love that you got paid because you deserved it and incredibly brave for you to voice it. And at the same time, Doris, there is a risk that could have gone badly. Because often we're like share your truth, you know, do what's right for your race, for your group, for people behind you. But there's real risk of getting fired real risk of getting in, you're not kidding when you can get shuttled off, like people think all sorts of things, and they can sack your career,

Dolores: They can sack you in that company, they can't sack you in life. Yes. So by the time that I did that, I was confident that I was darn good. And I had a lot of value to add in, if they didn't honor it, I would find it somewhere else. And having discussed with my husband, we had already discussed the fact you're gonna get fired if you do this, okay. But you have to pick your battles, what's important to you, I didn't feel I'll say like this, I felt humiliated. Learning how little I was paid compared to everyone else, after I had pretty much killed myself for them. If you're not able to meet your bills, if you get fired, and you know, it's going to hurt your relationship, your kids are not going to be able to go to the school and all that, you know, you have to make your own decision. Nobody can tell you what you should do in that case,

Analiza: I appreciate that this was a conversation you had with your partner, and that together, you understood the risks that you're taking, and you're willing to risk some hard stuff. And yeah, it's very honest, to speak your truth. Be willing to take the risks. And hopefully you come up on top, which is what you did. It's hilarious. One of the things I've heard you say is standing up for your worth, knowing that you are you can walk away, there's so much power to having that sense of no matter what people say, inappropriate words like what are you doing at Harvard, you can ground yourself in your own worthiness, one of the questions I have for you is taking care of yourself. Because often that's not part of our corporate speech, especially when you are busting your tail to do well for the company. Can you talk about how self care integrated into your life? Was it something that you always practiced or wished you would practice more?

Dolores: I learned self care later in my career, after really, especially when I was working internationally, and was in different time zones, every couple of days, all around the world, 28 countries I covered and I was exhausted, absolutely sleep deprived for maybe over 15 years. And when I moved back to the States, I realized that I had pretty much wrecked my body. I learned to do yoga, I've always been a swimmer, I started doing that more regularly and just putting it on my calendar. That's what a trainer told me. You say you don't have time to do this. Put it in your calendar, just like any other meeting or obligation and stick to it. And just being able to, you know, relax, take a bath, play some music, spend time and learned to build that in. It's essential to your mental health.

Analiza: Were there ways in which you made sure that even when things were incredibly stressful that you still made time? Was there anything that you practiced that allowed you to choose yourself?

Dolores: Well, I learned a bit of meditation as well. And sometimes when I was in the middle of a maelstrom, I would sit quietly in the dark in my room after I got dressed in the morning, and meditate on a certain situation and there was a ritual that I did. That brought me to my center. So when I went out, I was more on point as to how to handle myself in a situation.

Analiza: That's beautiful. With that Dolores, this has been such a wonderful conversation, learning about your roots, your schooling, how you navigate your career. Are you ready to do lightning round questions?

Dolores: Okay.

Analiza: All right. First question chocolate or vanilla?

Dolores: Definitely chocolate.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Dolores: Either?

Analiza: Would you rather climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Dolores: Jump from a plane. I've always wanted to do that.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Dolores: Never.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of 1 to 10? 10 being Mariah Carey?

Dolores: Two.

Analiza: What's a recent book you've read?

Dolores: The boys of the Boat about rowers at the University of Washington went to the Olympics.

Analiza: What's your favorite current way to practice self care?

Dolores: Swimming, sometimes I'm so in need of a good workout. And when I'm not in a pool, I'm dancing.

Analiza: What's a good professional development you've done?

Dolores: A good professional development. I once went to the Manager Institute in Kansas, and it was about managing your mental health in stressful business situations. And it was an occasion where you're really looking deep at some of the questions that all of us are facing out there in the rise to the top. And, you know, I was especially fascinated by the fact that several of these big burly men spoke up brusquely, right? Which proves that we are all struggling.

Analiza 30:19 Thanks for sharing. What's your definition of a Boss Mama?

Dolores: A Boss Mama. That's a current term. But it's always been a part of what I was trying to be, which is to do it all. My husband died when my daughter was five and raised her by myself, even though I had this hectic and stressful career. But I will say this out of all of it, the most important thing that I did was raise my daughter. So women who sometimes sacrifice the idea of marriage or children, I would say, you know, think about that carefully. Because the most rewarding thing I have found in life is my family.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self Dolores?,

Dolores: To my younger self, I would just try to explain some of the lessons that I learned later, to my younger so took me years to be able to say some of the things I'm telling you today. And it would have saved me quite a bit of stress had I known them earlier. And then so many young women out there.

Analiza: So helpful. Where can we find you like LinkedIn, your website?

Dolores: Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. And also I have a website, which is doloresjohnson.com And that is where my book and other essays that I've written. And you'll find out some of my press coverages and see some videos of my presentations elsewhere.

Analiza: And then last question, do you have a final ask recommendation or parting thoughts to share?

Dolores: I would say a critical skill that people should learn early is negotiation, especially women are not used to negotiating. I find that often. And the truth is that when you go into a salary negotiation, purchase a promotion discussion, males expect you to negotiate, and women don't take what's offered is always, always, always more to get. So if you're offered the moon, ask for the stars.

Analiza: Dolores, thank you so much for these wise words. I often think gosh, if I had known all of these, it would have really saved a lot of pain. So thank you for crisply bringing them together, including this negotiation. I really appreciate you.

Dolores: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, I'm excited to share that we have a new book. It's called the Myths of Success: A Woman of Color’s Guide to Leadership. It's based on the lessons learned of many women of color leaders, including those on this podcast. And you can get a free chapter at analizawolf.com/freechapter. Lastly, we have a Woman of Color Rise program and it's a six feet online cohort program this spring. You’ll build relationships with an intimate group of other women of color leaders, and you'll also walk away with a career growth roadmap and strategies to grow and career. Check out analizawolf.com/course for more information. Early bird pricing ends February 9. Thank you so very much.