Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise Podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipina American mom of two, and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the US Air Force. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. We'll be talking with successful CEOs and C suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys. If you're a woman or woman of color, who wants a seat at the table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I'm psyched to be talking with Stacey Chavis today. She is the managing director of Campaigns Academy. And she trains leaders to serve an elected office serving positions for political candidates campaigns. She has a background in politics, she actually started her career as a support person for Congresswoman Denise Majette. So a black woman, and then she continued on to many different roles, including Deputy Finance Director for the Democratic Party of Georgia. Stacey has her bachelor's from Oglethorpe, as well as attending the women's campaign school at Yale. She graduated with a master's degree in the study of law from the University of Georgia School of Law. Thank you so much, Stacey for being here.

Stacey: Thank you for having me, I’m excited to be here.

Analiza: Stacey, I want to go right into this career path into politics. It's not a one kind of career where I hear often that people want to go into it. And yet you have had a huge and very successful career. Was that the plan? And how did your identity shape that plan?

Stacey: No, that was not the original plan. The original plan was to be a pediatrician, but made some shifts and pivots and moves. My parents are retired public servants. And so I watched them do service professionally and in the community. And so being able to see their example, I knew that service and giving back with something that you did, my parents also took my younger brother and I with them every time they went to vote. And so I grew up knowing and having a sense of duty to be able to vote. So it is my identity, as a black American and a black American and a black woman has really shaped the work in which I do and why I remain connected to the work.

Analiza: Stacey, I want to talk about your view of politics because you and I admire that we've talked about this so many diverse people entering politics trying to make a difference. And yet I feel that Black women in particular, women of color, have a hard time of it, it seems incredibly difficult. You can be the most capable of women. And yet, it feels like a no win. So can you talk about your view having been in it, especially in Georgia, serving as a Black woman being around diverse leaders? What's your view of why this is?

Stacey: Sure, I think it's for a variety of reasons. I think as women again, being able to have all the rights and privileges of citizens. When I think about women being able to have the right to vote, we talk about the 1920 that was white women that were able to vote. And then Black women, Latina women, Asian women, and Native American women, also subsequently over the next 100 years got the right to vote, but not all at the same time. And so I think that's really important when we talk about this work, also how women are seen in the workforce, right?

For many years, women were secretaries and assistants relegated to the service and support roles. And we are now becoming accustomed to seeing women in leadership. And so women have to be able to see themselves in leadership. And men have to also be able to see themselves in leadership. I worked for an organization many years ago called the White House Project. And the goal was to train women for elected office and to ultimately get a woman in the White House. And that is still a goal of many in the White House as president, right. We have a woman in the White House right now as vice president. But we always talked about being a you can't be what you can't see. And I think the road is harder for women of color just simply because again, not being seen in those roles of leadership and being able to have those examples of seeing yourself this weekend. The movie surely is coming out.

And Shirley Chisholm is actually one of my personal heroes. And she rose and she was the first Black woman to serve in the United States House of Representatives. She was also the first Black woman to mount a run for President of the United States in the 70s, where people were like, What is she doing? What is she thinking? First of all, there weren't many Black women in Congress at that time. There definitely weren't that many women in Congress at that time. And so I think that we have to be able to talk about the challenges, but also the opportunities. And I think the opportunities are plentiful. And that is why I remain engaged in this work, because of the opportunities.

Analiza: There is a famous chair Chisholm quote that I want to bring in, if you don't have a seat at the table, bring your own chair. And I find her so inspirational and share an admiration for her as well. So thank you so much for bringing her into this conversation. At the same time, Stacy, unfortunately, we've seen women, women of color, go for big roles, and even with their backgrounds, even with their credibility, their track record of being a successful leader, they have, unfortunately, not failed. And I know that we want to point to opportunities, and we want to continue to inspire people to go for those opportunities.

But it feels like a double edged sword, right? They call it the double bind. I don't look like the typical leader. When I was in the Air Force. I don't I don't look like that they were they wondered who was I even American when I was serving abroad? How could I look? How could I be an officer? Aren't they usually white males? What? Who are you? So I want to talk about how we want more women in power. And we also want women. We want a woman as president. And yet there's these two, when or not, when do they fail? It's like you there's no way around these double binds. And so can you talk about that, particularly for women, this idea of even being liked? How do we, how do we get liked, but then when you know, people see us as nice, but then they don't see us as the leader? What's your view on this?

Stacey: It's so fascinating, right? So as we think about the challenges, there are many challenges to women in leadership, particularly women in political leadership. And I would say in my 20 years of doing this work, a lot of it is perception. A lot of it is perception. And there's of course, a lot of sexism. Of course, there's racism, there's many other isms, but it is the perception. I remember seeing a video clip recently, of an older white gentleman who said that, basically, women's work is only in the home, why would we want a woman to run for office? Or why would we want a woman to serve in Congress? Or is it governor? And I thought to myself, wow, people still have those views in 2024. And so how do we combat that? And how do we talk about that as a challenge? Well, you have to call a thing, that thing.

But on the other side of that, I think about the fact that if we don't have women in the city councils and the county legislatures, even on a local level, at the statehouse, who will look out for the issues that we all care about, who will look out for health care, who will look out for women's reproductive rights, and making sure that diverse voices are at the table, and all of the myriad issues, the environment, sustainability, education, all of these different issues that if we don't have women at the table, pushing forward this legislation, making sure that we have women at the table, that are mayors of our cities, and governors of our states to be able to have that executive leadership, it will look really different, who will be there to look after and look out for the women and men and children and families in our communities if we don't have women at the table.

And we're not saying that we want the men to not be there. We're saying that we want to add women to lead alongside because we bring a unique perspective, we see things differently with their challenges and opportunities that we have because of our gender, and for some because of the gender and the race. And so you're able to see things differently. You're able to see communities differently because you move in those communities because you live in those communities and you know what those communities need because you are among them. And so being able to highlight those issues when you serve on the city council, when you serve on the county commission, when you serve on the soil and water and tree board all of those things are needed and bring that perspective and that lens to the table but it is hard. It is very hard work. You ask any woman in elected office why in the world did you do this and why do you stay that passion comes deep from within, from wanting to serve our communities and make sure that we look out for the least of these.

Analiza: Stacey. I want to talk about looking out, not just for these issues which you made such a good case for. Why do we need women at the table? And what would happen if we didn't have women at the table that we are seeing some of now? It's really scary. I'm curious, Stacy, as you think about helping others, because that's why we're here to serve. If so, how about helping each other and helping other women? What's your view on that? Do you feel like we do, and we don't?

Stacey: Yes, and I do think that there are women that work together. I think about all the organizations here in Atlanta, Georgia, where I live in the south and across the country, that promote women's leadership, promote women's political leadership, and a myriad of issues that women support. But then there are women who believe that women should not serve anywhere, really. And that's the man's job. And I think a lot of that is largely in part because we are accustomed to seeing men in leadership, you know, you served in the military, and thank you very much for your service. But for many, many hundreds of years, most of the leaders have been men.

And so how do you change the perception when all the pictures on the wall all look the same? And so we always talk about the quote, of you know, women making sure that we work together in help other women. And to be quite frank, I've been in conversations and in places and spaces where women didn't help other women, why is she running for office? makes her think that she could do this? Why should she even consider it? And then you know, those are avenues and gateways to open up and have those conversations that she's needed at the table, her voice is needed to make sure that we look out.

Just to give you an example, here in Georgia, there's an organization several organizations that are working to remove the tax on feminine hygiene products, which are still taboo, right. And so for many women, you spend decades of your life using feminine hygiene products. So why are they not considered a medical device and that way, being able to not be taxed, people are able to use their assistance to get products. And so those, again, are conversations that women are at the table to have those conversations to talk about the benefit of rebooting the tax to talk about the benefit of why feminine hygiene products are quite literally a medical device that you cannot go without. That's why we need to make sure that we have women at the table, because they're unique issues that we see that are really important. When I think about women's reproductive rights, I think about the fact that mothers are needed at the table to talk about what it's like to go through pregnancy and to what you need after pregnancy. You cannot speak to that effectively if you have not gone through that. Yes. And so again, other reasons why women are needed at the table and all women, right. Every woman is not a mother, but every woman has something that she contributes that is needed at the table.

Analiza: Stacey, I agree. And I'm wondering if your view of being at the table, what does it take to be at the table? Particularly do we need to be liked? Can we just make the hard calls because I've seen men, many men just make a tough call. And the rest of us listening to that call, might feel all sorts of feelings disagree in all sorts of different ways. But when I've noticed that that reaction that we have, which is maybe being angry or quietly surly, it's not the same as when a woman makes a tough call. And all of a sudden all sorts of things happen. There's a ton of backlash. And it makes me wonder about this concept of being liked. Do we need to be liked? How do we balance being liked, and making tough calls? Can we rise in power without being liked? What do you think?

Stacey: I love this question. I love this concept. I've been doing a lot of reading this week and recently on this concept of being liked in the workforce and how that will help you moving forward. I do think it is important in some environments for people to be liked. I also think back to you know, presidential elections of the past where we talk about do you like this person? Do you want to sit down and have a beer with them? And so for many people, those are important things that they look at in their leaders. What is likability and I think for women that's really important, right? You know, there have been many women leaders in elected office and appointed office that, you know, people have not necessarily liked. They've been very effective. They've done their job to the best of their abilities, they have served the American citizens, but they weren't necessarily liked.

And so I think, could they have gotten farther along in their career? If it were liked a little bit more? I also think being liked is very subjective, right? You know, this group of people may like you, and this other group of people, you know, may not like you, can you do the work? Are you qualified? Are you going to, to do the job and to get the job done for the citizens. But I do think that this likeability conversation is important. And for some, for many of us, we do want to be liked. And I think that's okay. right to say that you did that you want to be liked. But if you aren't liked, can you still do your job? And that answer is yes.

Analiza: We have to say this in a really clear way, just as you are, Stacy, that it matters to be liked, and well with the stereotype that women have to be kind and subservient, and a helper. And some people even think not even deserving of big roles, including women who think that about ourselves, I want to go to the concept of working in the job, because often when we think about our job, we think about getting getting stuff done getting projects, most sending emails, and yet being liked matters being light matters. Or man being light is I would say less important. And based on research, we can see it, it's less important. You can be a tyrant, you make tough calls, and people would respect that.

But for women, if you are not liked, and you're making tough calls, it's harder to keep rising. People promote, people pick people, people lean towards people that they like. So as a woman we're expected to be liked. And we need to be aware of this, especially I hear you Stacey saying, in politics, likability really does matter, it's actually asked as a survey question. And therefore, you can be the most effective of leaders. But if you are not liked, that's going to impact the vote. Sometimes people vote for people who are ineffective, even promote people who are ineffective, but they like them. So these are things they say, I wish I heard early in my career: don't just focus on the work, get your head out, build the relationships, and make sure you're liked by certain people with power. So thank you for sharing that.

Because we have to, we have to say that really loudly for people also not to give up our identity. So I want to make sure we say that too. As women of color. We are not saying be all assimilate. Forget your identity. We're saying, think about your relationships, develop real relationships. Stay as genuine as you can. Maybe it makes sense sometimes to you know, go towards a person who you know is different from you and flex your style, or sometimes you stay grounded in who you are, you can flex but build the relationship across difference.

Stacey: Yes, I think relationships are vital in any industry. I know that relationships have made the difference, all the difference in my career and in my life. And as we think about, you know, this concept of likeability and also approachability, right? We want our leaders to be approachable if I come and I say hello, will you speak and smile and be pleasant with me? That's important, but I will say it is having those relationships and even working in politics, understanding the politics of politics, right, one of your previous guests said it is what 60%? What did she say? She said 60% is politics and 40% is actually your work product. Right?

So again, building those relationships. And the other thing that I wanted to point out that you said that we weren't necessarily taught in school, you know, for women leaders and women in the workforce is being strategic and how you build those relationships. And as I think about many of our women, political leaders, and how they have ascended to power where they are, they have been very strategic and how they have built those relationships and cultivated those relationships over time to help them get where they are and to stay where they are and to be effective right and to work on behalf of citizens. But likability, approachability are all concepts that are very important to women leaders, and particularly women, political leaders, as you're getting people to come out and support you and to vote for you right? Do I like this candidate? Do I want to, you know, go have a beer if you're of age with that candidate.

Analiza: I want to ask you, because you said this earlier, and I want to go deeper. It's such an important point. We're not just saying go out and build relationships. We're saying, Be strategic. And I know you train leaders to become elected, grow in terms of their ascent up and impact it, can we can we talk about the details? Because if I were to sit down with you and say, I want to be strategic about relationships, what does that? Do you think so? I start walking around schedule zoom calls, like what does that mean? And we can take us to the politics of it. You said you build the right relationships, that allows you to grow and allows you to really get reelected? How do we determine who we should build relationships with and how we should relate, build this relationship? How do we wish to maintain it? Can you walk us through? Because I would love a play by play here?

Stacey: Yes, no love that. I would say, one of the things that it's important when you're building relationships, is just think with the end in mind, where are you trying to go? Right, and that helps to inform your decision making. So after I had worked for a member of Congress, and she had run for another office and wasn't successful, I had to figure out well, what did I want to do? I had already worked on the government side, but I said, if I'm going to be in this world, I need to get trained. So I sought out organizations where I could get trained, I built relationships here in Atlanta, Georgia, with people that were doing what I wanted to do, I figured I needed a specialty right, in campaigns.

And I said, Well, everybody needs money. Let's go to that. Right. My dad is also an accountant by trade. So I'm accustomed to the numbers part of it. And so going after and finding those women in men that were fundraisers, talking to them, I remember being in college and doing informational interviews, and building relationships that way. And also, when we talk about relationship building, it is not just one way, right? It's not just what can I get from you? It's also what can I give and how can I be of service. And that's how I think about it.

But as I think about building relationships, and being strategic, it's thinking with the end in mind, or the next step. And sometimes just making sure that you know, the players in your community or the players in your industry, whatever that is, and building those relationships, we talk about oftentimes building relationships with people, you know, a couple of years ahead of you a couple of steps ahead of you in the workforce, right. And then people who are a couple of steps behind you, and not where you are yet, but having those relationships where you manage up. And those relationships where you manage down and really find value in people, I find value in people, and I try to cultivate my relationships, you know, coming out of the pandemic, we got to do a much better job of that. But having those zoom meetings, having those phone calls, hey, you know, this is just 15 minutes, I got these three questions, I want to get your opinion, I want to understand how you feel about this. But one of the things that I do know about building relationships is people love to talk about themselves and talk about their stories. And ask them how they got where they are.

Analiza: Oh, it's so good. I'm hearing a few things. One is begin with the end in mind, know where you want to be. If not, you know, 510 years from now, the next step, build those relationships, do them informational interviews. And as well as staying in touch, it's a two way street that provides value, even these quick 15 minutes can really go a long way in maintaining the relationship. And third, when we are trying to think about how to stay in contact with each other. There's a piece of it, that in this zoom world we're in this post-pull, I don't know, post-pandemic world, we have to be really mindful and strategic because it's not going to naturally happen over the watercooler in the office. So it has to be deliberate. And these can be career savers as well as career boosters so I thank you so much, Stacy. I know you train so many leaders and this has been so fantastic. I want to ask you some lightning round questions. Is that alright?

Stacey: It is what you get.

Analiza: Right. First question that I have for you is chocolate or vanilla?

Stacey: Chocolate.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Stacey: Cooking.

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Stacey: Jump from a plane.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Stacey: Yes.

Analiza: Do you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of one to 10,10 being Mariah Carey ?

Stacey: Six.

Analiza: What's a recent book you read?

Stacey: I read The Art of War for women.

Analiza: What's your favorite way to practice self care?

Stacey: Taking a nap.

Analiza: What's a good professional development you've done?

Stacey: Wow. So many I love training a training program. So find a training program that you love and go through it. I have gone through many It has made all the difference in my career.

Analiza: What's your definition of a Boss Mama?

Stacey: Wow. A Boss Mama is a focused woman who stays true to herself, true to her goals and gets things done.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Stacey: I would tell my younger self. You got this joy, the journey. The mistakes that you make will help you in the long run, and there's no wrong turn.

Analiza: And then where can we find you like LinkedIn or any other social media?

Stacey: Yes,I am on LinkedIn and Facebook and X, formerly known as Twitter and Instagram, at Stacey Chavis, S TA C E Y. Chavis, C H A V I S emphasis on the E in Stacey.

Analiza: And do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts to share? Maybe this is a good time to mention your Campaign Essentials guidebook?

Stacey: Sure, sure. Sure, I have a guide book. It's called Campaign Essentials guide. And it is all of the tools and skills that you need to start your political campaign. And I would be remiss if I did not remind everybody that we need you to go out and vote on November 5 2020.

Analiza: Stacey, thank you so much for that important reminder, and I still appreciate our time today.

Stacey 26:37 Thank you so much. This has been such a privilege and I enjoy it.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time to hear today's podcast. Three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, I'm excited to share that we have a new book. It's called the Myths of Success: A Woman of Color’s Guide to Leadership. It's based on the lessons learned of many women of color leaders, including those on this podcast. And you can get a free chapter at analizawolf.com/freechapter. Lastly, we have a Woman of Color Rise program and it's a six week online cohort program this spring. You’ll build relationships with an intimate group of other women of color leaders, and you'll also walk away with a career growth roadmap and strategies to grow and career. Check out analizawolf.com/course for more information. Thank you so very much.