Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise Podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipino American executive leadership coach, and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the US Air Force, and also the author of The Myths of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership. It's based on the lessons learned of many women of color leaders, including those on this podcast.

We talk with successful CEOs and C suite women leaders of color, and learn about their leadership journeys. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. If you're a woman or woman of color who wants a seat at that table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I am thrilled to be with Deb Grant today. She has had an incredible career. She's currently an independent director and also a leadership development, diversity and inclusion expert. Her career has had so many highlights. One of the highlights was being appointed by the board of directors as GE, first black female corporate officer for GE. She has been the president of the GE foundation while being the Global Diversity Officer. Some describe Deb as a unicorn, and she uses her horn to shatter glass ceilings while bringing scores of others along, many into the C suite. Her second chapter began in 2017 when she established corporate playbook, a business consulting firm that specializes in executive coaching and strategic solutions. She's also launched dining with Deb, which brings community professional women together to cross racial, religious, political barriers and drive meaningful conversation. Deb, our unicorn. I am so thrilled for you to be here. Thank you so much for joining us.

Deb: Thanks for having me. I'm really thrilled to be here, and I'm looking forward to having a great conversation with you.

Analiza: Deb, let's talk about identity, and I'm curious, how do you identify and how has that shaped your career?

Deb: Well, I identify as a black woman. My life is very defined by that. I grew up in a mostly segregated middle class neighborhood in New Orleans, Louisiana, which is where I am now. I've kind of come back full circle, not in the same neighborhood, but back to the same city. But I grew up in a middle class neighborhood with a family with strong middle class values around hard work, educational achievement, preparedness, and I would say, even though my life, my school, my church, was largely segregated, my parents really felt that race was not and never should be a limiting factor for achievement. I started school in a very small private pre kindergarten and kindergarten for black students. The school as a digression at the time. It started in the 30s, which I was not that old, but in the 30s, was started because the public schools in New Orleans would only enroll black students in first through fifth grade. That was all that was permissible by law. So there was a black female educator who just believed in students, who started a private, you know, nursery, pre K, K, which was very rigorous. We were expected to be reading in kindergarten and counting, and we learned languages beyond English. So I grew up in a situation that was very, very rigorous, and, you know, really expected us to learn and to perform and to excel and to continue with my story. I then attended a pragmatically segregated and I say that because segregation was illegal, but it was still pragmatically segregated public school across the street from my house. Through sixth grade we had reverse integration, I will call it so in my school, which was an all black school, the white teachers came to our school versus us being used somewhere else, I was able to excel academically. I was involved in Girl Scouts and stuff like that, and that is very germane to my story, because when I started junior high, I went to Ursuline Academy. This is now seventh through 12th grade. Ursuline Academy is the oldest Catholic girls school in the country. It was founded in 1727, it was overwhelmingly a white school with very few other minorities at the time, if you were a handful of African Americans and just one or two of anything else, because I was very academically prepared. You know, my mom was a school teacher, so she did a lot of work with me outside of the school curriculum. But just to be sure, I did extra stuff all throughout my life, but I was able to really excel. I was in the Honor Society, I was in theater. I. Elected president of my class both freshman year and junior year. So that solidified coming back to your original kind of point. That solidified for me that my value, my worth, my ability to achieve would never be limited by race or gender, because I was able to excel in an environment where people really did not look like me or have the same kind of background as me, as all other than all being girls.

Analiza: Deb, you culminated in this incredible dual role, chief diversity, global diversity, head and president of the GE foundation. What would you say looking back at your career moments? Was there one that you thought, wow, that advice, or this moment, or this learning really helped accelerate you to such top rules.

Deb: You know, my mother always said to me, you know, if you don't know something, don't pretend to ask. And so I was never afraid to ask. I was always intellectually curious. And I think that's one thing that always helped me, because even in business, even if you're working on a project, you know, being intellectually curious, you know, can help you take the project you're working on to new heights. You know, you're not just satisfied with, Hey, we said we wanted to accomplish a, b and c. If you're intellectually curious, you're now thinking about, well, what could D, E and F look like? And those are the things that I think distinguished me, sometimes, maybe from others who were similarly situated, and I was willing to push the envelope to say, Well, what else can we do? What else is possible? What else can we dream about?

Analiza: That is a special characteristic depth. Because sometimes when I work with clients, I'm not sure about what your clients share with you, but mindset, well, if I share something that I don't know, I could appear as if I lack knowledge, or that I shouldn't be in the room. And so can you share from your perspective, because it's an interesting piece, I will ask the question because, not because I don't know, but actually because I'm curious. Can you share that mindset of not knowing doesn't mean anything. It just means I'm curious. Could you say more about that?

Deb: Sure, and it's a great question, because I think it's multi-layered. So part of it is you can't show up and ask all the questions, right? I mean, you can't say I don't know anything. I need to ask everything. So I think you have to come in and establish a level of credibility around preparedness and knowledge. So you want to come in. I talked about that a, b and c, right before we get to what could D, E and F look like? So with that, A, B and C, I am demonstrating a level of mastery or knowledge on whatever the project or the skill or the activity or the initiative we're trying to do. But then as I push the envelope, I'm like, hey, you know, I'm just curious about this. Or, you know, I thought about this, this and this, but I'm not sure how this would work. What do you think? So you're coming with something. You're coming almost with a theory of the case, a hypothesis, and then you expand the question. So you're not just coming with a blank sheet of paper. You're coming with something, and then you're asking to expand. Or, you know, I'm not sure about this. What do you think about it? Or that's sort of a way, I think, to sort of frame that so it doesn't appear that, well, I don't know anything, and I think you've got to have the confidence I'll share this as well, to say, when you don't know that's another thing that I think that's helped me from my career standpoint, is to have the courage to say, You know what? That's a great question. Let me get back to you, because people who will pretend or fake an answer are always going to be found out. They will always be found out, and they will be embarrassed. And so it's great to just say, you know, that's a great question. I will come back to you and then make a point of coming back to that person, and then you build credibility in an organization that way.

Analiza: It's gorgeous. Let me just stamp these because it's so powerful. One is, don't be afraid to ask. Don't be afraid to ask. If you don't know, you'll be found out. Don't be afraid to ask at the same time, come prepare yourself. Have some knowledge. Know your ABCs, so prepare yourself. Third is asking questions is a sign of curiosity, which is a leadership strength, and it's an opportunity to get to, as you said, def push the envelope, and it's a way to impress people, right? To say, like, given all that we've discussed and all that I've read, I wonder and ask that question, and then have the confidence to say, I don't know, and I'll come back to you. So it's so beautiful, because we don't learn this right? Often we're like, oh, I don't want to appear not knowledgeable. And yet, it's actually a super strength to ask questions and push Yes.

Deb: And I love your way of phrasing it, which was, I wonder. You know, that's a typical thing you can almost keep in your hip pocket as an easy way to phrase it, Hey, I wonder. And then whatever it is you want to say, have a couple of those that are just ready that you can put out there, you know. So you don't have to feel uncomfortable or fumble, but you've almost practiced saying, Well, I wonder. And then you've got your thoughts.

Analiza: Beautiful. We've had so many peaks. Deb, I'm curious, was there a rock bottom moment or a tough moment or a mistake that really helped shape you?

Deb: So, you know, I don't dwell on what I will call mistakes, because I truly. Believe everything is a learning opportunity, whether it goes well or not well, it's a learning opportunity. What I would say was tough for me is the time in my life when I was really juggling all the things, as they say, all the things, you know, motherhood, a job, where I was traveling a lot, being a spouse, being a family member, a family member, from the standpoint of my own mother and other siblings and so forth, you know, being a community member, you know, I always believe in giving back to one's community. So you're juggling all the things, all the things. And again, I had to really go back to what I learned early on, which was, you know, what? I don't have to do all of this by myself. I don't have to be all things to all people. I can ask for help, and it's okay, because one of the things around asking for help, particularly in some of the roles that I mentioned, we have preconceived notions in terms of our value as a woman, as a mother, you know, as a mother, I should just know this. I should just know this because I'm a mother, because I gave birth. Well, who said that? Who said that? Who made that up? Maybe you don't. Maybe you got to look in a book somewhere. Maybe you got to ask somebody. So I think you know, really getting comfortable when you've got to juggle, to say, hey, you know what? Maybe I don't know. And then thinking about the things you want to prioritize, because you can't necessarily be all things to all people all the time all by yourself. So all things to all people all the time all by yourself. So some things, you may say, You know what? I love being very active in my church. I may put the active role on a bit of a back burner for a while, where I'm going to attend, but I'm not going to lead a church committee or anything, because I'm doing these other things. I will come back to this, maybe in a different point in life, maybe when I'm not traveling as much, maybe when my kids are a little older. But I think you've got to really think about strategically prioritizing your life over the arc of time, versus trying to do everything in one moment and feeling like a failure if you're not doing it all in one moment.

Analiza: It's so powerful, right? Because there's this myth that we can do all things, be all things, be this perfect, quote, unquote perfect woman, and it's a farce. We can, while we can't have it all, we can choose our all. And I talk about this in the book, and I'm sure you have talked about this with your dining with them, events. What is our All In this chapter, in this moment? And maybe it means being a lead on this committee for church, or maybe it means attending and allowing other people to lead. So I love how intentional you've been, because you've had such big roles, and also community and family roles, those are important roles too. It's not like work is all, end all. We need to see our whole self with that. Deb, I'm curious for you, honestly, it's incredible what you've accomplished in your career. What do you think made the difference, besides being curious and really, you know, asking for help as a, as a, all of these parts of your identities. What else would you say really made a difference to you getting into such a top role? For example, at GE.

Deb: Well, I had supporters, I had mentors and I had sponsors. I mean, I was thinking about, you know, was there ever sort of a pivotal moment, if you will, when, when something really kind of came to fruition and accelerated my career. And I can speak to one very specific moment, you know, I was probably, I would say, kind of an early executive, if you will. And I had two children, two My daughters are two years apart. So one was under a year old and the other one was just two plus. And there was a leader, a very, very highly regarded leader in the company, who wanted me to come and consider an opportunity working directly for him, and I didn't want to move to where he was located. I just, I'm like, I got a kid under a year old. I'm barely, you know, juggling all the things I really don't want. And this was a highly regarded leader, highly respected, somebody I knew I could learn from, and I just said, you know, I really just don't want to. So I'm thinking about, how can I message No, but also make sure people think I'm still serious about my career, right? Because I never sort of said no before every other thing that kind of came up kind of worked out. Like, yeah, this kind of works, or whatever. But it's like, no, I just, I don't want to do this, not at this point in time. So I did call him and I said, Hey, look, I, you know, really can't do this at this point in time. Blah, blah, blah, here's all the reasons why and but I would love to work directly with you. You know, if this opportunity ever presented itself in the future, because I hear you're great to learn from blah, blah, blah, so we kind of shake hands on the phone and part ways. Well, five months later, it was a reorg. He got promoted to being my boss's boss, so he moved. I didn't realize. Okay, he relocated, and so now he's my boss's boss, and so within about three weeks of him taking the role, he reached out and said, Hey, I want to set up a meeting with you. I kind of like to pick up where we left off. So we talked. He created a role for me to work directly for him on a project that was very important to him, that allowed me to work with him directly, so he could see me and get to know me, and then it allowed me to work with members of his team. So why was all of that important? It was important because he ended up becoming one of my biggest sponsors, because he had heard about me when he wanted me to work for him five months prior, but he didn't really know me. He got a chance to see me directly, so I'm working directly with him. He got a chance to coach me to ensure I was going to be successful. So he didn't just throw me in to say, well, here's the project. Good luck. Fill me in in about three weeks. He said, No, let's meet weekly, because I want to ensure that this goes well. He was investing in me to ensure that this went well. And then he had me present out to his staff. So this is now my boss, who's on his staff, and others. So they had a chance to see me. They had a chance to see that he was championing me, that I was important to him, and it ended up making the difference in me getting my next big promotion, which was a big promotion. He was very much responsible for that, and I always saw that as Wow, as I dissected it. You know, years later, this is how this kind of worked, and how can I role model this? So I tried to do this for other people as well. I tried to leverage my power, my strength, my ability, wherever I was in an organization, to do exactly the same thing.

Analiza: It's a beautiful story. And if you wouldn't mind, what was his race, what is his identity, his background?

Deb: White male.

Analiza: Yeah, I love that we have these stories because I also have white males who have power, who shared and invested in me. And looking back, I don't think I knew how pivotal those sponsors were in my career. So I'm so grateful we're lifting them up. Deb, can you talk more about the relationship? Did you say I want this person to be my sponsor? Did he tap you? Because you know you're just shining brightly at that initial kickoff. Can you share more about how that relationship got developed?

Deb: Sure, and there's another interesting nuance to it as well. So it got developed because, quite frankly, someone went to him five months prior and said, Hey, you don't have any African American women on your team. You should do something about that, given your role and who you say you are. So he made a call around the company and said, "Who are up and coming, African American women with this kind of skill set background?" My name ended up on the list. So that's the call we had where I said, No, I cannot relocate at this time. Fast forward five months, so he already knows about me. He's heard about me and given how he sort of operated, I'm sure he made a bunch of phone calls to kind of check me out and heard a positive report. Another interesting thing that was very nuanced, and I say this even more so for the white men who may watch this podcast, and that is so he, he was sponsoring me. So he was championing me. All of this now, when it came time for the promotion in the conversations, and I learned all this well after the fact in the conversations, he was Deb is great, but I think maybe she needs this, this and this, or maybe one other thing, or just one additional even though he had worked with me more closely than anyone else in the room, it took an African American man in the room who also knew me, who said you are the problem because you want her to jump even higher than you are asking others To jump, as you describe in this, in this conversation, and for him, to his credit, it was beyond eye opening. And he said, You're absolutely right, and we're gonna, we're gonna make some things happen for her,

Analiza: Wow. And that's the game. I mean, that's the reality. Is that even when you got the help and there was intention, and there was, it's almost like you're set up, right?

Deb: Because we're all human, because we're all human, yeah? Because now you've worked with this person, you know her, she's good, yeah, all that looks great, but now it's time for you to co-sign, yeah. Now you gotta co-sign. So when you're co-signing, oh, boy, that starts to feel a little scary, like, what if this fails? What if she doesn't do well, does this now, you know, throw all of the world into into the chaos, which I can't imagine I would throw all of the world, but, but that, but that's sort of but then I say that, and I share that with men, white men, allies who want to be held. Helpful to just understand, make sure you're not over indexing and asking that person who you are chanting to do more, versus sort of at least being on par with others.

Analiza: I am appreciative, so appreciative. I'm an ally for you. That's why I really want you to do more. That's why there's just a little bit extra that you gotta show me, because we have as women, women of color, it's based on performance, right? Not potential. Deb, I see a lot of potential in you. Then we just give you that role, that salary increase. It's what have you done Yes and

Deb: When, and when I'm putting my name next to yours, you gotta really have done it like, really, well, really better.

Analiza: Plus, plus, plus plus, right?

Deb: That's right, that's right, that's right, that's right. I just think that's an interesting nuance that I as people listen to this or watch this, I want them to really think about the entire story that I shared. Not just, uh, I had a great sponsor, but I had a sponsor who also was willing to listen to other input and realize, Wow, I'm doing the thing that I really don't want to have happen. Let me get out of the way here. I've done my job. Let me get out of the way and let her fly.

Analiza: And it takes a family, right? Like, imagine what it took for that African American man to say, Yeah, Nope, you're not you're doing it. You're the problem. I mean, wow.

Deb: Yeah, and I'm not in the room for this, right? This is all years ago, and this is all shared with me later, but this is, this is, this is what happens.

Analiza: So powerful. I mean, it takes a village. This is how we make change. I want to go back to this point you mentioned earlier, which dining with Zav is a beautiful example. You said, for the people who've opened doors for you, for the sponsors who've supported you, you're trying to be that. For others. Can you tell me more about what that actually looks like? Because I want to get concrete. Some people are all about allyship. I want to help. I'm also about inclusivity, allowing, sharing power, and yet, you know, you see some actions where I wonder if the talk is actually matching the walk. So can you share with me some specific examples so that we can learn about what it really means to pull others as you rise.

Deb: Sure, and we can get to dining with Deb a bit later, because I think there's some other examples here that are more direct to your question. You know, I think it's being very intentional when you are going to mentor or and or sponsor someone, and how do you behave when you're trying to do that? So are you actively inquiring? How are they doing with them, directly and with others. How is Annalisa doing? You know, what is she doing? Well, is there feedback that I could give her that would be helpful? Now, this is not you're asking her. You're asking people working with her. You're asking people senior to her. You're asking people who are her peers. Because when you are ready to throw her name in the hat for something, you want to know where you're going to have allies support in the room, and if you're not having support, or if you're getting some pushback, you want to be sure you can get that person to agreement. You want to be sure you it's almost as if you think about that concept of having the meeting before the meeting, if you know, when you're trying to advance a cause or an initiative, or you're trying to advance a person, it's the same concept, right? So, so, you know, if she just did this a little bit better, if she just presented more financials, when she presents, you know, she's given us great concepts, great ideas, and there's results, but if she just gave us a little more of the financials, so she gave you a little more of the financials, I'm the sponsor speaking, if she gave you a little more of the financials you would see she was really ready to ride? Yeah, absolutely. So you kind of understand that, and now you can go back with feedback, real feedback for the person you're trying to have as your protege or to help. The problem that happens with proteges or sponsors, or whatever you want to call them, is they never really hear what they need to do better. Everybody says, Oh, you're great, you're great, but you never really get well, yeah, great, but, but there's one other thing. What's that other thing? What is it that I need to do, or what or how I need to show up? It may not even be what I need to do. Or who do I get to know? Who do I need to know? Who needs to know me? Who Needs to Know Me who, who needs to feel comfortable and confident that they can say, Yeah, Dev, or whomever would be great that I haven't spent any time with. You know, there's, there's things like that that I think are part of the game, if you will.

Analiza: I want to highlight this meeting before the meeting, because the meeting, the big meeting we're talking about, is a meeting where we're going to put people up for promotions, opportunities. That's right, salaries. And it's not a meeting where you're just gonna throw the name in there. They've never heard of Deb, and here we go, we're gonna talk about her.

Deb: There's, yeah, if you throw the name in there like that, it's not gonna go anywhere. It's just like the other idea, project proposal, if you sort of just throw it out for the. First time in the main meeting, it's not going to go anywhere. So how do you have those conversations? Build that support and dispel any concerns, address any concerns before the meeting.

Analiza: So wise. I want to talk about this dining with debt because you have done this for years now, even during the pandemic, and it's been really successful. You just had an event at Martha's Vineyard. Talk to me about the inspiration behind it and what you're finding women to do because there's different ways, right? You see women at church or you see them at the park. What makes this so special?

Deb: So for me, dining with Deb, and our tagline is dining with Deb by women for women, celebrating women was something that I looked at as an opportunity for women to support each other across all of the lines, professional women, across racial lines, across industry lines, across generational lines. But how can we show up for each other? It's hard for me to show up for you, engage with you, help you if I don't know you. So I find that a lot of us tend to stay in certain circles. We stay in our kind of familiarity circles. We stay with our friend group, if you want to call it that, our girlfriends. But how can I lean in and engage with other women that I may not know very well? And I would say maybe sort of networking, but networking with deeper purpose, knowing that I need to know you. Yes, I am willing to help you. Here's who I am, here's who you are. What are we both bringing together? But I gotta have some comfort with you. I mean, I'm not. Most people are not apt to really help anybody. If you don't know, I mean, you're not, you know that's sort of being a good Samaritan. It's not a deeper, more sustained connection. So that's how dining with Deb was born. I've done it in New Orleans for several years. When the pandemic hit, we did a virtual one, and actually raised money through the United Way here for hospitality workers, for female hospitality workers, in particular, whose jobs just suddenly went like that. Because when restaurants closed, they closed, that was it. And so how can we give these women grants, like quickly, 500 bucks, and I mean not much, but enough to make sure they could get groceries, they could keep the lights on or whatever, when the jobs just went poof. So we even did it through the pandemic, but we try to bring information and insight that help women be successful. So for example, you mentioned we just did one on Martha's Vineyard. So Martha's Vineyard, we had a panel of women. And on Martha's Vineyard, there tends to be more African American women than not, though not exclusively, but we talked about black women in the AI revolution. So AI is a big topic right now, and you want to ensure that as women in general, we know what's going on. We know who's in space, what they're doing in space, what's happening. And so I wanted to ensure that the women assembled, we had over 200 women assembled. Could hear from people who are actually working in the space. So we always try to bring topics of relevance to the table for these women, and then give them an opportunity to network and hang out and get to know each other and have a good time.

Analiza: It sounds those feeding the mind and feeding the soul. So I love it, because you can, you can have both, right? It doesn't have to be all fun and not actually helping to pursue and further your career. I want to talk about your board service because I feel like you have had this amazing career. You continue with your corporate playbook work and your dining with Deb. How does the board service? Because it's such a hard it's who you know, right? And it's not like, okay, I can everyone puts in their application for a seed. How do these Connect? In your mind, in terms of the getting to know people and your networking and your board service.

Deb: I think it's about, you know, being intentional and being vocal about what it is you want to do and how you'd like to do it, and where you think you can contribute and make a difference. And so for me, you know, having been in the C suite of what was at the time, a fortune five company, you know, board service, felt like something where I thought I could continue to add value beyond retirement from the fortune 500 C suite, if you will. And so it is. I mean, it's great people that you work with. You feel like you are helping to shape organizations, where they're going, what they're focused on. You're not management, so you're not trying to run the organization. You're not diving in deeply, but you are really using everything you've learned, everything you've learned from a career standpoint to this point, you know, from a strategic standpoint, from a product knowledge, from a marketplace knowledge, from a relationship knowledge. So I find it very, very, very rewarding.

Analiza: It feels like a very full life. Leader, community member, dining with Deb, bringing community together, and then also board service. I want to bring on your corporate playbook, because I know you have this amazing avatar and are trying to make this bite size and relatable to people. Can you tell people about this? Yes,

Deb: I can. I can very soon, not too long from now, I have a little, I'll call it a booklet, because it's a very small booklet coming out called the corporate playbook. For many years, because my company is named the corporate playbook, I would go to speak, or I would engage, and people would say, Oh, well, we'd love to buy a copy of the corporate playbook and share it with our leaders. And it's like, well, you know, the corporate playbooks kind of in my head, you know, there's no real there's no book, there's no physical, anything. But the reason I use this tireless header is because I really do believe that success in corporate America, in organizations anywhere, really, there's a playbook, there's a series of moves that you can make. It's just like football or sports or volleyball or whatever you play. There's a series of moves that you can make to be successful. There's moves that can derail you. And so the more you can learn and master the moves that enhance your ability to move sort of forward, the better. And so I try to sort of lay that out, I am not a huge novel reader anymore. I used to be long ago. I'm almost sort of like an audible kind of person. Now, the podcast really worked for me, but I said, you know, I've got to always be authentic to who I am and where I am at this point in my life. And so it's a booklet. It's a multimedia booklet. So it's got a physical, sort of paper, digital piece to it that can be printed, but it also has links to video where I talk a little bit about what, what's in each chapter. So, you know, for people like me who aren't going to sit down and read a huge business book, even though they may have it on the shelf because it looks good, they're not really going to do it. This is perfect for you. It gives you some sound bites, some snippets, some examples. You know that you might use it, or it may not have all the answers, but it might prompt your thinking about how to advance one's career.

Analiza: Sounds fabulous. I can't wait with that. Deb, are you ready for lightning round questions?

Deb: Sure, I always love Lightning Rounds. Whenever I moderate something, I always do them. So let's go lightning round. Is always fun.

Analiza: Chocolate or vanilla?

Deb: Oh, vanilla.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Deb: Takeout, takeout. It's been takeout for a while. I like to cook Thanksgiving dinner. That's kind of it. The rest of it's the rest of it's takeout. Or, better yet, it's delivery. How about delivery?

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Deb: How about neither?

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Deb: Oh,no. Why would I do that? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of one to ten, ten being Mariah Carey?

Deb: Oh, that's a tall 10. So let's bifurcate that. I would say in the shower, probably seven out of the shower. It's probably more like four.

Analiza: What's a recent book you read?

Deb: I would say this has been not very recent, but more impactful. Book I read is called belonging. It's by my friend Michelle Miller, CBS News correspondent, CBS correspondent, Michelle Miller, who's on the Saturday morning show on CBS. It's her life story. It's called belonging. It's powerful, it's rich, it's well written. It'll make you laugh, it'll make you cry. So I just I really enjoyed that.

Analiza: What's your favorite way to practice self care?

Deb: Massages. I love massages, even with travel, conferences and stuff. If there was always an opportunity to do that, my thing was to kind of just have massages, like almost all over the world. So I've had different kinds, different styles, so that that's my thing, you know, that kind of takes me out of everything and kind of into my own kind of Zen zone, if you will.

Analiza: What's a good professional development that you've done?

Deb: One of the most interesting ones that I would say most people have not done is it was called the Normandy experience. So I went with a group of, I don't know, maybe 25 to Normandy France, with a group of professors from West Point, US Military Academy at West Point, and they took us through the leadership lessons of Normandy. So how did they plan for the Normandy invasion? Again, from a US standpoint, what happens when you make contact with the enemy? How do you pivot? How do you have a plan B? And so I just thought those lessons learned as you are literally looking out on Omaha Beach or Juno Beach and reading, you know, some of Stephen Ambrose's, you know, D Day, the sixth of June, all those things, it was just a great way to learn and solidify leadership lessons and practices that I keep with me today.

Analiza: What's your definition of a boss mama?

Deb 34:51 A boss mama, oh, I don't know. You know me. Maybe I don't know somebody would. I tried to make it happen, and I have a mom, so let's go with that.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Deb 35:08 I would say to my younger self, it's gonna all work out. Okay. As I would say, my younger self had a lot more angst than I have now. So if I could tell myself, you know, stay the course, hang in there. It's gonna all work out, okay.

Analiza: And then where can we find you, like LinkedIn.

Deb: So on LinkedIn, I am Deb Grant. Please feel free to connect with me. I love connecting with folks and knowing what you're doing and what you're up to and how I might help you, and you might help me, and we may collaborate. So Deb Grant on LinkedIn.

Analiza: And then do you have a final ask recommendation or any parting thoughts to share?

Deb: You know, my parting thoughts are have fun along the journey. You know, I look at people, and I know people, and I've worked with people who were so caught up in the grinding and striving that they just didn't enjoy it along the way. And they get to, you know, different parts of their life, and they realize, Wow, I wish I had, I wish I had, you know, and I just don't have many I wish I had, you know, somewhere along the way, I tried to stop not saying I did every single thing you ever wanted to do, but I've done most of them. So I would say, enjoy the journey. Take the time to smell the flowers and enjoy the journey along the way.

Analiza: Deb, what a beautiful conversation. And yes, we should smell the flowers. I so appreciate you sharing and thank you. Thank you.

Deb: Thank you for having me.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time to hear today's podcast, three things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, you can get a free chapter of my book, The Myths of Success: A Woman of Color’s Guide to Leadership at analizawolf.com/freechapter. And lastly, if you're interested in executive coaching, please reach out to me at analiza@analizawolf.com. Thank you so very much.