Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipino-American executive leadership coach and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the U.S. Air Force. I'm also the author of The Myth of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership. It's based on the lessons learned by many women of color leaders, including those on this podcast. We talk with successful CEOs and C-suite women leaders of color and learn about their leadership journeys. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. If you're a woman or a woman of color who wants to sit at that table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I am so thrilled to be talking with Angie Kamath today, she's a dean at NYU School of Professional Studies, and she has had a background in wanting to bring equity to education and workforce development. Incredible career, including being a member of the New York City Mayor's Office of talent development, workforce development, where she was appointed to the future of workers Task Force and has had an impact there before. She was at NYU. She served as an Executive Vice President and Executive Director at per scholars, a national IT job training nonprofit in the South Bronx. Angie has a great background, including graduating from Cornell with her BS and her Master's at Harvard Kennedy School. Angie, I'm so excited for this conversation. Thank you so much.

Angie: Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to it as well, Analiza.

Analiza: Angie, we always start with identity. So I'd love to hear your How do you identify, and how has that identity shaped your career?

Angie: So it's such a pleasure to be here. And again, I think a lot about leadership constantly. I mean as a leader, I think I mean tested every day. And so identity is a really important one. And so for me, I very much identify as a first generation American daughter of hard working, education focused immigrants and my role as a mother. And so those are the two kinds of identity roles for me, being Indian American and raising a family and really spending a lot of time thinking about the kind of next generation, both in my personal and professional life, are what really drives me very much every day.

Analiza: When you were young, Angie, were there any beliefs that you were taught either at school, from your culture or family that you realize now, after looking back, those actually weren't true .

Angie: So many and so one of the reasons why I am so proud and kind of the answer to kind of my identity is Indian American, is that growing up in suburban Long Island in the kind of 80s, I either thought I was white, I wanted to be white, I just wanted to fit in. This is the time of American immigration, where our role was just the melting pot, like people said with pride, and just melt away your culture and fit in. And so I just wanted to kind of be part of the majority growing up. And it really wasn't until I would say, even post college, I started to kind of really question it in college, but I realized that I wanted to just kind of be the same, and I didn't really talk about my culture. I didn't lean into it at home, we talked a lot about it at home, it was a really important part of my identity, but that was the home private identity. It wasn't something that I brought out to the world. And so on the one hand, wanting to be like everyone else, kind of quote, unquote, was sort of my outside kind of persona inside the home, though we were deeply proud of being Indian, deeply proud of being immigrants, deeply proud of kind of coming to this country and making a good life for ourselves, being educated, having great jobs, contributing to the community and just real pride and kind of Indian culture. And so it was really interesting to kind of have to feel like I needed to hide that in public, but being really proud of it privately, and then trying to kind of just fit in and be like everyone else on the outside. And so I can now look back, and that seems sad, that seems unfortunate, that seems wrong. And I guess all I can say is I've tried to, in raising my children now, instill in them kind of deep pride in being Indian American, deep pride in knowing who they are and understanding kind of different. Similarity and being able to articulate it far better than I ever had a chance to grow up.

Analiza: I know that we had shared earlier how much you care about both identities as Indian, American, first gen and then on the other side, personally as a mother, and I'm curious, how are you instilling that pride with your children so that they can not just have that pride inside with their family, but also outside with others.

Angie: Yeah, so I go back and again, it's as I think about leadership, we often kind of go back to some of the earliest leaders that we had in our lives. And so in my case, my mom probably, like a lot of people, and my mother had, you know, these kind of one liners, and one of them was just, you can't have two sets of manners, you know, one for the people who are like you, and one for the people who aren't. And so I think that it's kind of, for me, as simple as that, which is you have one set of manners. You treat everyone, regardless of the circumstance, in the same way, and whether that's in a workplace, whether that's in a school, whether that's when we're at a soup pantry, kind of helping out our neighbors. That space and grace to give to people who are in different circumstances, the ability to just kind of be and coexist is a really important part of what we do. And so like for our family, we do a ton of volunteering in our local neighborhood, just to understand that it's not no one's asking to be in a less than ideal circumstance. No one's asking to kind of have to struggle. It is what happens. But again, but for the grace of God, any one of us could be in those same situations. And so that's really important to me, that whether we call it just empathy or understanding difference, being respectful around it, and kind of always questioning, kind of, how did people, what are the systems that failed in order to have people who are struggling in some way, shape or form? And that's very aligned to kind of what I've chosen to kind of focus my career on. And so those early lessons definitely made an impact. I didn't understand it along the way. It was probably not until I was in my 30s that I sort of literally took a step back and sort of said, like, why am I doing this work? How did I get here? And it started to really click in for me.

Analiza: When you talk about your kids and how much you want them to have empathy with the same manners for all people, and the way in being with all people. I'm curious because it sounds like you found your sweet spot, where you can be yourself, with your identity, with empathy, with the same manners, and you're also doing what you're passionate about. So can you share what that is? How did you find out that that was it?

Angie: I spent four years there. It was a good four years at Citibank. It was a fantastic company from a training and development perspective, and I realized I just didn't see anyone around me that was engaging in topics that I found to be interesting, engaging in work that I thought had impact, and engaging in just the kind of wider world in a way that aligned to my values. And so again, there's heroes and villains in every single sector. And so it's just I was either not looking hard enough, or it wasn't kind of at my level, or at that moment in time, I just kind of wasn't finding that network of people. I think, kind of, you know, fast forward, social impact finance. ESG, there's a lot of really excellent kinds of ways to create impact in the financial sector. I just didn't find it when I was in it. And so for me, when I think about that question, like, how did I get here, I knew that I love that kind of business background. I knew that I understood that that's a really important part of how the world works, kind of understanding the economy and what drives it. And so I needed to kind of figure out how to get to a place that felt like it was both tapping into what I was good at and my strengths. I am kind of like a numbers data geek, but then also doing something that had much more of a mission and vision. And so I experimented with, well, I went to grad school to kind of make that career change, but then I experimented with a couple of jobs in government, in the nonprofit sector, and in public higher ed. And then I've always been on that kind of people side of trying to help the kind of untapped talent, really high potential folks who are often looked at by society, helping them get a fair shot at financial independence, at economic mobility. And so while I've had a number of jobs kind of exploring this, I'd say for the past 24 years, I've really been in the same area of kind of human and talent, human capital management, talent development, and just really trying to understand how we can change our models of what good talent looks like.

Analiza: You've covered finance, you've covered government, now nonprofit, now to higher ed. What are you seeing as levers of saying, here's how we can. Actually make access more possible, not just for specific groups, but more accessible to sectors. So what would you say there?

Angie: Yeah, and so I'd say necessity has always been the mother of invention, right? And so we, you know, our population is not growing in the same way people are having fewer kids. We have a huge aging out, graying bubble. Immigration has always been fraught in this country. It's not a brand new thing. Our immigration policies are pretty difficult at multiple levels, and so I have seen, interestingly, I have seen a ton of opportunities open up, I'd say, in the past 15 years. So it started with the tech boom, right? So in the early 2000s there was this whole kind of wake up call that the middle skill jobs were got, the jobs that were growing that required a kind of post secondary education, and there were not nearly enough people. And again, for a while, it was the software developers and programmers. But then, you know, it's turning into folks that have aI skills, health care, education, even government. Are both recession proof? Really great living wage jobs. And there's also just, you know, as you look at the cost of living in cities upon cities in this country, we know that we need to do more for people. We know that people want more for themselves. We know that business and capitalism is a very important part of the American kind of dream. And I have seen a lot more openness, where it's not just people who went to these particular schools, these credentials, getting the opportunities. But I don't love seeing the war on talent, but there has definitely been more opportunities given to folks, because there simply aren't enough numbers in terms of college graduates being churned out every year, or immigrants who are coming, who are highly skilled. So therein lies a wonderful opportunity that I think, even in today's climate, is absolutely going to continue.

Analiza: Angie, it is so helpful to hear a positive outlook on possibility, given all the things that are going on. So it's nice to hear that breath of fresh air. And I'm curious, because you have had this career where you've looked at talent from a supporting middle, middle skill jobs, and value this role. And I'm curious, because your SPS this Dean role, can you talk about what this positioning is for NYU, and what your hope is being in this role to impact?

Angie: What am I hoping to do here? School, Professional Studies. We're 90 years old. NYU itself is looking at its 200th anniversary in a few years. But we've been 90 years old, and we were founded. And I think it's pretty incredible that we were founded in the middle of the Great Depression, 1934, and at the time, it was meant to be a school for working professionals to gain skills, to be able to have financial independence and kind of job mobility. Fast forward to 2025 that mission of helping people kind of reach their dreams, regardless of who they are, regardless if they're in the C suite or they're just starting out their career, if they're a retiree, if there's someone who's early career and just hitting a, you know, a speed bump, or if someone's in in high school and just kind of curious about the world of work, that's what we do, and I'm really proud of that, that mission. And so we have everything from associate degrees to bachelor's degrees, master's degrees. We do executive education training. We do pre college work. We do enrichment courses for kind of retirees, and we serve in total of 12,000 All told, students a year in this notion of professional skills and kind of competency building and making that more mainstream in I'd say private, more elite higher education is something that I'm really excited about, and I think it's really important, right? Because I think we're hearing now that skills are becoming obsolete within a five to seven year period that didn't used to be the case. Most people will have 12 to 15 jobs in their careers. Careers are extremely non linear. They're not places where you still work in the same institution for 30 years. It's amazing if people do that, but that's not the norm. And so the idea of kind of being a lifelong learner is, I think, and having curiosity is really, really important. And so that's kind of what we do at the school, and what I'm trying to kind of raise up even more. We have a lot of programs. The biggest learner segment that's growing in America is adults who have some college and no degree, so adults who started their educational journey but got interrupted for. For work, for family, for health, for economic reasons. And what we know is kind of credentials, you know, they can be inflated, like there are plenty of jobs that really shouldn't require college degree but do, but nonetheless, there are jobs that reasonably, legitimately, appropriately require kind of post secondary education to kind of get to that next level, and so we want to make sure that we're equipping as many people as possible to kind of attain that goal.

Analiza: It really does go back Angie, to your mission of helping all people have access to equitable opportunity. This idea of education, which then parlays into new skills and possibilities for gaining, not just employment, but also having, being able to afford these cities, which are very expensive. I want to talk about you and your career because you've mentioned curiosity, lifelong learning. I hear that in your own career as you've not had a linear you know, here's step by step, 25 years at one place. Can you share one power move or mindset or practice that generally has helped you in being able to navigate and also reach this beautiful place in your life where you feel pretty aligned, identity wise, Mission wise, and also your strengths?

Angie: Yeah, so I'll give credit where credit is due. I didn't come up with this one myself. It came up for me at an entrepreneurial event or an entrepreneurship event, excuse me, with female founders. So at NYU, we have our Leslie e lab, where we highlight and help support students who want to start their own business. And so every year there's a female founders forum. And so I went to one, probably about three years ago, and I don't remember the woman's name, but a powerhouse panel of venture capitalists and IPO startups and new emerging startups, and a student asked the question, do you ever and it's typical, right at events with female executives. Do you ever feel imposter syndrome, and what do you do about it? And the advice that she gave, and the advice and the wisdom that I really have carried forth with me all the time, and I try to share it as much as I can, is the answer. The response was that the feeling of imposter syndrome is actually your superpower. You do not like the moment you are the smartest person in the room. Move on. You've learned as much as you can from that group. Do you want to be the arrogant person who's not all in the room? Or do you want to be the curious person asking questions? Do you want to be the person who's hungry, who's like, willing to stay up, to kind of explore and do more work, or do you want to be the person that just kind of dials it in? And so she just made a far more eloquent kind of speech. In terms of imposter syndrome, it's in our head. It's been drilled into our head, that it's a weakness, that it's something that we don't have. And her take was, you always want to feel like an imposter. You always want to have that outsider kind of, kind of new person mindset, to solve problems, to engage, to be curious, to ask questions, to strive to work hard. And so if you ever are having that feeling that you don't belong, ask a question. If you ever have a feeling that you don't belong. Knowing that it should be uncomfortable is not a bad thing, and there are definitely environments that are not welcoming and not welcome, but you know, feeling like you don't know everything so you don't deserve to be there, that just means you are a curious person who has something to learn. And I love that, and I tell that to my students all the time, that you're almost by definition. I want us all to be in rooms that make us slightly uncomfortable, like that's where we stay in the hard part, that's where the learning happens. And so I think that that's really important for people to recognize and sort of not take that as a hit to confidence, and not take that, not personalize it or internalize it as a failure, but sort of say, don't you, if you want to hire someone, aren't you? You? As a hiring manager, I want to hire curious, interesting, inquisitive people. That's what I want. I don't want to hire a, know it all. I don't want to hire and again, this goes for some, but not all, roles. I want to engage that person who's really hungry to kind of learn and do more. And so I think that that's a piece that I really carry with me.

Analiza: Oh, I love that so much. It's turning it on its head, this idea of imposter syndrome being something that is bad that you know, if we ever feel these feelings of inferiority or worry or stress, oh no, run away and, you know, fight, fight. But instead, if we can welcome it and say, Okay, this means that we're on our learning edge, we can find opportunities. Here, in fact, that means that I am in the place that I need to be, because I am going to grow and be humble because I don't know it all, and this, this idea of curiosity and asking questions, it is actually a powerful place to be, because when we don't know we want to learn and we want to connect with others, it allows us then to open up and grow so yes, absolutely, I hear that. Thank you so much for the share. Oh, Angie. Okay, that gets us to lightning round questions, are you ready?

Angie: I'm ready.

Analiza: Chocolate or vanilla?

Angie: Chocolate.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Angie: Cooking.

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Angie: Definitely climb a mountain.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Angie: I have, I love my Birkenstocks. I love them.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being Mariah Carrey?

Angie: In my mind, I'm a solid 7. I don't know if that's in reality, but in my mind, I'm a solid 7.

Analiza: What's a recent book you read?

Angie: My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful.

Analiza: What's your favorite way to practice self care?

Angie: I am slightly obsessed with my daughter. We go to the Korean Day Spa every month and get one of those amazing scrubs that are extremely rejuvenating toxins, kind of, you know, depleting and awesome, yes, and I have to walk around with a halo for at least 48 to 72 hours after that. Love it. We do it every month.

Analiza: What is your definition of a boss mama?

Angie: So this weekend at our school, we were celebrating Black excellence in hospitality. And so Melba Wilson, she's an amazing chef in Harlem has, I think, 15 different stores. She's been an Iron Chef. She is my idea of a boss mama. And you know what she shared was just, you know, being courageous, saving and kind of taking care of yourself first. And, you know, in regards to this kind of current climate, her take was, I got my popcorn, I'm going to sit back and watch, because what the black community does, it's never been easy, and they've always made lemonade. And it doesn't just go for the black community, but communities of color, we know how to pivot. We know how to kind of get by, we know how to push through. We know how to support each other, we know how to be in community. And there's always been a struggle on some level. And so I think the notion of we're not going to let others, kind of, you know, write the narrative for us. We're going to write our own narrative and times will be good. Sometimes times will be tough, other times, but if we are surrounding ourselves and supporting our community, we kind of can't ask for anything more than that. So she is my boss, Mama for the week. Melbo Wilson,

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Angie: So I now understand it more than the notion of, like, what fills your cup, what gives you energy, what's the there's lots of ways to say it, like, when are you in your flow? Like, when do you just kind of engage in something? Can do it for hours and time passes by and find that as quickly as possible, like, be on a kind of quest to figure out, like, what, what you're just naturally good at, and turning that into a job, turning that into kind of a vocation is really, really important. I spent my younger years just being like the annoying A plus student, like wanting to please my parents and wanting to get the good grades and do the things that I thought were expected of me, and I don't think it was really until probably about 15 years ago, where I stopped being on that quest to do the things that were impressive to the outside world and understanding what I'm actually pretty good at. And so for young people, I try to remind them all the time, you're going to have 15 to 20 jobs, you have multiple passions like literally, Stanford has done the research. 80% of people will have multiple kinds of careers. 20% like, they know they're going to be a lawyer from birth. They know they're going to be a doctor because they're from a generation of doctors, or from generations of doctors, but 80% of us change our ideas a lot, and so the best you can do is, like, really start to get to know what you're good at. And often it's hard for me to know what I'm good at, but just ask friends and family, like they know what we're good at, right? It's very obvious in a millisecond to people who probably haven't even spent a. Ton of time with us is what we're good at, and so getting really comfortable asking, What am I good at? What do you think about when you think about me? What, what, what is helpful about what I do? Getting really comfortable with that early on, I probably could have landed in higher ed, like, literally, a decade or two earlier, if I actually understood that.

Analiza: Beautiful. And then where can we find you, like LinkedIn, anywhere else?

Angie: Yes, so, LinkedIn, Instagram. So Dean common is, where I am on Instagram, LinkedIn is a great place to find me. We post a lot because there's a lot of just wonderful diversity in terms of thought and action and ideas at our School of Professional Studies. So yeah, find me on LinkedIn. Just Angie cometh, A N, G, I, E, K, A, M, A, T, H, and I look forward to engaging with you, and I really appreciate the time to share a little bit of my story.

Analiza: Amazing. And then last question, final ask recommendation, parting thoughts to share.

Angie: You know, I'd say the last piece that is important is that, you know, I think we as women, we hear a lot about having confidence and kind of being kind of out there in the world and, like, fake it, but you know, till you make it. And I guess for me, as I think more about it, I think it's really much more about having courage. And kind of being courageous, in my mind, is a hell of a lot more important than being confident. Again. Confidence comes with time and experience, but if we wait till we're confident, we'll never do anything right. We might be waiting too long. And so I think that kind of notion of taking risks, taking prudent risks, kind of being courageous, knowing that there are things we can control and things we can't, would be the advice that I'd give to kind of a leader in any place, any point of their career.

Analiza: Beautiful. Angie. Thank you so much for the stories and all this wonderful so appreciate you.

A Angie: I appreciate being here, and thank you so much for being on the podcast.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time to hear today's podcast. 3 things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, you can get a free chapter of my book, The Myth of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership at analizawolf.com/freechapter. And lastly, if you're interested in executive coaching, please reach out to me at analiza@analizawolf.com. Thank you so very much.