Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipino-American executive leadership coach and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the U.S. Air Force. I'm also the author of The Myth of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership. It's based on the lessons learned by many women of color leaders, including those on this podcast. We talk with successful CEOs and C-suite women leaders of color and learn about their leadership journeys. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. If you're a woman or a woman of color who wants to sit at that table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

Guests. I'm so excited to be with Dr. Judith Brown Clarke, she's the Vice President for Equity and Inclusion, the Chief Health Equity Officer, Chief Diversity Officer at Stony Brook University and health system. She serves on the president's cabinet and senior leadership teams, leading efforts in inclusive excellence and equity sustainability. And she's also a former 1984 Olympic silver medalist and four time National Collegiate champion. I mean, wow, wow. Judi. And in addition, over almost two decades, over 17 years of diversity strategy, Grant leadership, institutional transformation. I mean, Judi, I could keep going on and on about all of your amazing accomplishments. Thank you so very much for being here.

Judi: Oh my goodness. Analiza, thank you for offering. And I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Analiza: Judi, I always start with this question, and it's about identity. How has that shaped your life? Yeah.

Judi: I mean, so growing up, I'm an African American female. I'm six feet tall. I'm very, was very, grew up very much a tomboy. And so you have to think I had a lot of things about my identity that made me have to kind of navigate the expectations of the world. And so I grew up with some very strong women, my my mother, my grandmother, my the aunts and I just had, you know, teachers and things around me that gave me affirmation, and that affirmation, I believe them so when the world was telling me I was something less than I had this incredible strength of what they define me as. And so it just really just kind of gave me the tenacity to if you don't think I can do it, then that absolutely motivates me to do it.

Analiza: Judi, did you see that you would be an Olympian? I mean, you're just like, I see that greatness. Maybe the world's not seeing it, but my mama sees it. I see it. Let's go like was that the plan? I mean, it's incredible.

Judi: No, not at all. As a matter of fact, I grew up in a non athletic family. We didn't turn, we didn't watch sports, we didn't attend games, we didn't play youth sports. We were very physical, so we rode our bikes. We played a lot of, you know, your neighborhood games, like we would play baseball, we do double dutch, we'd ride our bikes and things. So we're very, very active, but organized sports, no, I mean, I was, I was raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and like, our whole playground was, it had, it was all concrete, and it had 12 foot fences. And so there was no, I mean, so it was, I mean, literally, all my play was on concrete. So it was a very different relationship and physical activity than, say, young people today.

Analiza: So you had this force of love and affirmation, yeah, and you, even though you were hearing things from the outside world that were not supportive and even didn't have this organized sports background, right? The coaches that today now have coaches, and they're, like, six years old, you know, I'm like, wow, Coach already. So talk about your work, and particularly an athlete. How is being an athlete that path to the Olympics? And if you can share back, how does that show up today, and how do you lead?

Judi: Yeah, so one of the things that I was really good at is what's the next thing? And so sequentially, what is the next thing? So I never looked like, oh my goodness, I could be an Olympian. And was like, Okay, I'm the fastest in gym class. So now I want to be the fastest in all the gym classes. I would always like to. You know what? You know, how do I get to the next level? And I don't know how I learned this, but I would always study people that are doing it well. So if someone was doing it well, even classwork, if somebody was getting good grades, you know, what are you doing that I'm not doing? If you were doing something, you know, artistic, or something that I really wish I could do, I would just study you.

So I learned at a very young age how to really take in information and be curious about other people's success. And even if you know if the person was successful in a negative way, like bullies are thriving. But even with a bully, there's people following them. So there's something to be said for a bully where you've got this entourage, like following in them, you're like, wow, if they were to stand for something really positive, you know, what an incredible change they would make, but they're standing for something negative. So let me figure out why people are following them, and then how can I get people to follow me, but follow me in the ways in which it's doing the right thing for the right reason, for the right people.

So I don't know where that came from. I just always have been the kid that just really did not tolerate when things were not fair and that people didn't have access. We grew up poor and so on our block, we had a lot of, we had a lot of interests, we had a lot of families that were foster care families, children's Protective Services was, you know, on our block a lot, there was just a lot of things that you would normally see. I was raised early on in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and so we were just central to an urban setting and all the ills of urban and then, but you quickly realize that, you know, depending on where you live, that household had very different it's a different set of love, very different set of comfort and security. And so as I saw that with my friends in the neighborhood, I was just like, you know, how can I make it different for them? And that kind of started my journey of, you know, how do I get to a position where I could make things fair and equitable? That's kind of like the beginning of and how does it play out? You said so. And the playing out, what I realized is, like, sport is life, you know, when you are competing in something, it is, you know, literally, you could have, like, the worst, absolute worst, demonstration, like you, like you're playing baseball, and you just, you lose, like, 10 to zero.

The one thing about sport is, like, the next game you're playing, you're playing again. So you can't bring that, oh my goodness, we just had the worst game. You have to shake that off, compartmentalize that, put it on the shelf, and then you show up again. So the resilience, the tenacity, the fortitude, the goal setting that's deeply embedded in me, and it's embedded in me at an elite level, from, you know, as I continue to compete. So I would probably say, like, the biggest impact on the way that I address things is I use game theory, and that's, you know, the basis in sport. That's how I address really complex things. Okay,

Analiza: I want to talk about game theory, Judi, because Sure, MBA, a nerd like that. But before we do, I want to hear about what it was like. I mean, you're a silver medalist. You're in the Olympics. The whole world, the best, the best, are around you. This is as stressful as it gets. All eyes are on you. Yes. I mean, I want to talk about mind games because I know you're strong, physically strong, six feet tall, but there's a mind game in here. I'm sure that applies to leadership as well as Game Theory. Can you get a moment where you know, here is the strategy that you apply to these incredibly stressful situations to perform that?

Judi: Yeah.

Analiza: So what happens?

Judi: And you'll see it in any competition with athletes, if there is you have to focus on execution. You can't focus on the end game. So, like, no one goes at the beginning of their competition and says, Oh, my goodness, I have to win. We this is, you know, I have to win. This is the thing that if we don't win, we will not move to the next level, or these things don't happen. You cannot start a competition that way. What you're looking at is you start with like, what are the key factors that will give me a level of success? So every day that you go to practice, what you do is you look at execution. How can I perform with as few mistakes as possible that will give me the time, the distance, the scoring, whatever I need to do, I have to be as meticulous in what I do, execute it with as few mistakes as possible.

And then the other piece of that is like when you're fatigued and when you're. Rest, the one thing you have to rely on is form. So if you're running, if you're shooting basketball, or if you're batting whatever, the thing that you have to really focus on is your form. And so when I was running in the Olympics. I wasn't sitting there like, like, oh my gosh, I have to win. It's like, Oh, I really need to get a medal for the United States. It's like, my responsibility. I pretty much got in the blocks. And it's like, here's the key things I needed to work on. I need to drive out of the blocks, hit that first hurdle transition in hurdle four, hold my form on the curve, and then come in strong. You just, just say it over and over and over, those are the four things I need to work on. And that is pretty much what you're going through, is just kind of, you know, these are the four points of execution for me to be successful. So translate that to now as a non athlete, um, is, is is thinking of, you know, I don't go into a meeting and think I need everybody to agree, or I need everybody to to support this, this program, or this funding, or, you know, agree on this policy change and so on.

So I will go over my four things. It's like number one, who is the audience? What do they need to know? What do I think are some of the issues where this pushback, you know, where is there buy in? You know, how many votes do I have? What would it take to close, is this one meeting, or is this a sequence of meetings to the same strategy, still, still coming in with that same strategy? And so it's a level of execution, and I know, like, when there's fatigue in the meeting, like, like I was saying, in running you you default to form, and then in a meeting, you will default to policy.

So it's like, okay, the policy says that we need to do this, you know. Or here's the practice, you know, default to what are, you know, how to make decisions, how are decisions made, and make sure that that is always included in how this decision is. Was like, Well, I don't think we, you know, I don't think we have consensus. It's like, well, actually, it's the majority. So we don't have to have full consensus. I mean, know the rules, know the rules, and, you know, I think we need funding. It's like, well, no, this is something that's an unfunded mandate. So really we need to buy in. I mean, so know what? That's the muscle memory of making sure that we can, you know, continue this and get to some level of resolution. So it's the same strategy. I'm just focusing on a different outcome.

Analiza: I love that, Judi, I hear you say that there are best practices to learn from, and you said that earlier, that you're not the first, we're not the first. So who can learn from two, that when we're in game mode, we are focused on execution, not necessarily we've got to win. I love that, because it takes the pressure off, right? Yeah, take the pressure off. It's beautiful. Third, there is a strategy that we get from those best practices, and we've got to focus on the strategy to deploy. And then fourth is Get ready for fatigue. It will happen. And don't do your default, but go well, what actually matters here? And that's your relationships, you're buying all of those pieces. And it's beautiful because both on the field, off the field, you can use the same muscle right to Yes, to support others. And I don't think you and I have gone to different leadership conferences and been around incredible people. And I so love that this is work and life like advice that you can utilize to win, that's you can have this whole life and integration. And so I want to go to your point earlier about game theory, because it is strategic now. And if you could for our listeners out there to explain quickly what game theory is, and it's quite hard right to get people, yeah. So explain what it is, and then how it works in your in your real leadership,

Judi: Yeah. So when you think about it from a game theory perspective, we always think about games for entertainment, you know, but they're serious games, which are strategy and in probably the most successful is the military they use, like military games, you know. And what they're doing is they're creating case scenarios for things that may happen, but they're high risks, you know. So if you think about, you know, anything from a military perspective, not being prepared has incredible life and death consequences. And so you think about, you know, what are all the potential ways in which this particular situation can unfold? You know, some to your advantage, some to your disadvantage, but you're looking at it. So gaming. Is looking at, and the win is defined by what the win is that there is, there's agreement. So when you think of when, like some people say, I don't like game theory, it's winners and losers. It's really not. It's really It's once you establish what your intent and goal is, the win is that you achieve it. And so using game theory, there's a lot of things that are a part of serious game strategy that help you think of sequential ways of problem solving, particularly around complexity, and that's like the easiest way I can think about it.

But for an example I use, it's like, you know, when you're playing checkers, you're pretty much, you know, you move, I move. You move, I move. If you move that, you know, I'll respond to whether you move your checker, you know, forward, side, side, whatever, and chest, chest. You're really looking at the next five to seven moves. If I move this, the likelihood is going to have you move this, and there's, there's likely these next seven moves. That's far more complexity when you're thinking of, you know, how this may play out. That's the kind of game theory that you're looking for. There's a lot of theories, prisoner's dilemma. I mean, there's Nash equilibrium, there's a lot of, like, really wonky wonk things, but if you look it up and you just look at, you know, game theory for making, you know, trying to get a committee's consensus, it will show you how to take these complex game theories and apply it to strategies for getting people to Lean in and have a level of buy in, okay?

Analiza: Judi, as a setup, I want to talk about buy-in in these challenging times. Because, yeah, we do, right there is, there's a lot of dissonance, and where, maybe, at least in my lifetime, as separate as it feels, and it feels very personal. So I'm curious. Yeah, thinking about game theory, but also thinking about hope, right? Thinking about bringing people together, truly in these times, what? What's coming up for you? What do you think about it? I know you're a very hopeful person. And, yeah, actually is in the heart of you. Now, wow. People have feelings about it.

Judi: One of the things that I see when I think about, and my hope is, is looking at, you know, what are realistic outcomes? I think most people go when you're on, when you're looking at coming to some kind of a consensus, you know, you come to that negotiation with an expectation, and it can't be an expectation that you're going to agree with me. So I think most people will come to something, and it's like, I think I'm standing on the side of right, and you're not. And so then when I come to it, what I'm doing is my whole goal is to recruit you to see the light and come over to how I see the issue. Where I think, when you think about it from a game perspective, you look at it as okay. I know that these things for you are non negotiable at this moment, and I know for me, these things are non negotiable at this moment. Why are you talking about it? So let's talk about the things that are negotiable and see if we can get a win out of that.

From that now we're developing a relationship, rapport, a sense of some level of trust, because you don't have to agree with somebody to trust them, and in a way in which we may be able to start exploring things that we have diametrically opposite perspectives on. And so I think it's like, you know, from a game perspective, it's like, you know, what did you think the outcome was going to be? And so I think most people come to a situation where it's all about recruiting the person to their side. And so when I think about these challenging times right now, whether it is from a conservative position versus a liberal position, it's like, you know, I need you to come over to where I'm standing. And it's like, hey, I need you to come over where I'm standing. It's like, the negotiation is like, I have to be willing to give something up as you are.

So I can't negotiate and say, okay, Analiza, I need you to give some things up. And I'm not willing to give anything up. And if it's a tough thing, if you're giving up tough stuff, I have to give up tough stuff. And I feel that most people, during the times with this noise, it's like you're not willing to give up some things that you don't want to give up, so you just kind of stay standing fast, and I'm not taking another step towards you, and and so. But the win is, who are you serving at that moment? Is that your opinion? Are you serving your organization? Are you serving the people who don't have a voice?

Disenfranchised, because you always have to keep that in mind when you're standing there making a decision, because if it's just about you, it's like, well, there's no way that I'm going to win, you know, words matter. There's no way that I'm going to concede that. And it's like, Well, okay, is that your opinion? You won't concede that, or is that causing harm to the people that you're representing at that point? If it's uncomfortable but not causing harm, then you need to take a step there, because there's so many positive benefits of not getting everything, but we are going to get something, and we have an opportunity to come back and navigate for the rest at a different time.

Analiza: It's such a beautiful way to consider how we might come together. I hear you say that first, understand that there's our personal and then there's also the organizations, the communities that we're meant to lead and support, especially those voices we don't hear. And then second, that we need to be realistic, and I'm not about the personal I gotta convert you to my religion, right? That's right. Whoa. That's not going to happen on this podcast, right? Right? Could it happen? What could happen? Well, let's try to agree on something. And so what are those, those places that are negotiable? Yes, and let's actually be willing to get our ego out of the way and do the work for the people that we're both trying to serve. And three, get to some like, Okay, I'm going to give here. You give here. Let's actually be willing to dance.

And it's absolutely all those pieces that are so difficult because I feel like Judi, we can't separate the personal with the work to say, You know what? Here's the ego is so in there, like to concede is to be a bad leader, right? And it's we've got to take that away, to say negotiation and coming to the table, that that is part of it, breaking bread, like we've got to come together, right, right? Be willing, right? You know what? What? We can't agree on everything, and that's fine, but what could we move toward each other on? I so love that, and I so love that we do have examples of this right in our past.

Judi: All over, and truly it is grounded and a level of discipline. And like most, people don't want to hear that they're undisciplined. It's like if you can't take your ego out of this, you are undisciplined. Not hurts feelings, but you're undisciplined because at this point in time, it's not about you, and your role in that negotiation, in that conversation, is not about you, and so having the discipline to stay in what is my role right now in this interaction, my role is to represent a population, or is to represent organization or To represent something. I have to stay in that identity, because there's a lot of things. If it was just Judi, she may say or do. It's not about Judi. It is about Judi standing and my role and having the discipline to remain in my role to make the best decision and the best interaction for the people that are the issues that I'm representing right now is discipline. Most people are not disciplined.

Analiza: Judi, I want to talk about connections. We talked about connections to athleticism, what's happening on the field, and also what's happening in nature. And I know that's something that you practice. You're not, I'm only working, right? But actually you are. You're someone who's really committed to nature. So could you talk about nature? What does that mean in terms of its influence on you and your leadership? Yeah,

Judi: You know, it's so interesting. Like, people will say, you know, okay, what's your work life balance? Like, what? You know, you've got these things that are going on, you know? How do you decompress? And so on. It's like I play and pray in the dirt. So I love nature. I garden. I do both vegetable gardens and flowers and one thing is nature. There's so many bio-inspired solutions to things that are extraordinarily complex that nature has figured out. And so one of the things that you learn in nature is like you see this incredible persistence of plants and animals that persist under these incredible conditions.

So if you look at, you know, how exactly can you know certain plants grow and drought resistant conditions, there's something that they've adapted to, if you can learn about that adaptation, and then think about, you know, where do ideas, where ideas are in drought? You know what? Has nature figured out that we can use in this context to try to figure out a way to germinate and get some kind of synergy around, you know, an idea or a practice or a policy or a law, or just kind of coming together on some things. And, you know, just like everything else, nature has a cycle depending on where, okay, if you live in the south, and it doesn't, because it's warm all the time, but nature has a soul, a cycle. And there's a time of regeneration between spring, summer, winter, fall, spring, summer, winter, fall, there's a cycle, just like anything else, there's a cycle.

And if we can figure out what is happening during each of those cycles, there's a cycle of dormant there's a cycle of, kind of where it flourishes. There's the cycle where it's fruit bearing, and there's a time when it actually drops its seeds for germination. All of those things kind of really inspire you to take it out of the context of the cycle of life, you know, from a plant life or animal cycle, and then how do we take some of that and take those lessons, those bio inspired lessons, and use them for leadership?

Analiza: It's so beautiful JudI, because often we think, Oh, the solutions need to come from us. Oh, they're new. But actually, they're old. And there's so many beautiful examples, not just in people, but also in our plants. And Judi, you and I talked about the, the example of the sometimes with, within the most drought like places, that's actually when these, these need, these plants will then work together because they're supposed to. And so perhaps that's a time now when we look at people not wanting to come together, actually, it's so hard that perhaps this is a time to say we need new ideas and we also need each other. So Right? See nature say that to us too.

Judi 26:56 There's so many cooperative systems, yeah, where, you know, there's interactions, and like, one aspect of the interaction benefits one, the other aspect benefits the other. But the only way they can be both benefited is they come together

Analiza: absolutely with that. You had mentioned earlier, Judi, that it's play and pray, and you do that in the dirt. And I want to talk about the pieces of prayer, yeah, of faith. How has that shaped you and your leadership, your philosophy.

Judi: You know, I just feel like, you know, and I don't, for the audience listening. I think you know, we're all so connected, and the only way that you can really kind of hear from the universe is like you have to be quiet, you have to be still, you have to be able to hear. I feel like the universe gives you lessons constantly, but the only way you receive them is you have to be in a position in which you can receive them and internalize that. So for me, and I've grown up, and it's interesting in this work, because of the DEI, it's like, you know, I work with so many different people in so many different religions, and what, what it has done is, like, I have such an incredible love and respect for all the religions. And there's such a commonality, even in religious religions that are at war, it's like, wow. But if I take your doctrines and put them next to each other, they map. You just have a different position. You know, if you know who was here first and someone.

But I think there's like, this incredible there's an equilibrium in religion that there's something bigger than us, you know. And so it's like the basis of humanity is that, you know, we're all here for a purpose. We all have a responsibility for, you know, for our neighbors. You know, we need to treat people as we would want people to treat ourselves and our loved ones. I mean, there's and it doesn't really matter what you're, what your religion is. That's just the foundation of all doctrines of just a basis of humanity and, and, and, you know, kindness to mankind, nature in the universe. So I am extremely um, I'm extremely uh, spiritual and and I think as I get older and I study more religious, it's like, I think that's my religion. I think that's my religion. And, you know, and some religions you know, are more little less intolerant if you're not, kind of, you know, you know, kind of within that doctrine.

But I just absolutely believe that people have different relationships within the universe, and it has different, you know, ceremonies and different things like that. But that's it. It is the universe. And so I just feel that, you know, we're all connected in energy. And when I play in the dirt, you know, that is the dirt of everything. Has existed since the beginning of Earth. So, how we couldn't be more connected? I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, I have the dirt that ain't that dinosaurs walked on, you know? So that's it again. It is like we're so interconnected and and it's such, just this incredible cycle, like, like we see with summer, winter, spring and fall is that's the cycle of life. It's a cycle of, you know, periods of time and so on, and so it really is, when you stop and think about it, it really is kind of this beautiful time series of existence.

Analiza: Judi, thank you for drawing our view to the collective, because so often we're caught up in our daily annoyances that we forget, I forget that we're connected in humanity, and there's this waiting for something more, belief that there's got to be something bigger, and that Most of us, I mean, we have that like built in, right? So however you call the universe the source, however your faith is, it's so similar. So where might we come together, right? Where might we be right? Maybe I won't change the name of the person, the being that you call it, but perhaps there's this connection that we care about ourselves, right? Our families are with each other, right? So where might we be able to come together? So I love that, and with that, Judi, are you ready for lightning round questions,

Judi: I am ready. I am ready.

Analiza: Okay, chocolate or vanilla?

Judi: I don't eat sweets.

Analiza: Wow, okay, cooking or takeout?

Judi: Cooking 100%.

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Judi: Climb a mountain, I'll be there longer.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Judi: I'm from Wisconsin, yes.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills? Scale one to 10? 10 being Mariah Carey.

Judi: What skills? Karaoke? Oh, two.

Analiza: Two. What's a recent book you read? Or what's your favorite book you have?

Judi: This is going to sound so weird. I read a book by John Perkins called the economic hit man, and it is helping me understand a lot of geopolitics..

Analiza 32:39 What's your favorite way to practice self care?

Judi: I think my way of self care is like I will create opportunities for me to be quiet.

Analiza: What's your definition of a boss mama?

Judi: A Boss Mama? You know, I think a Boss Mama is, I mean, that is an individual that absolutely bi directionally can do self care, but care for others. And so we'll put on that face mask first and make sure everybody on the plane has their face mask. It's beautiful.

Analiza: What advice Judi would you give your younger self?

Judi: I think if I were to speak to my younger self, I probably would, would tell my younger self it's exactly what you think it is. Just keep listening.

Analiza: Can you say more about that? Because I want to, I just have to draw.

Judi: I think, you know, I think I've just, you know, even from like, my youngest, youngest, youngest self, I always felt like there's certain things that I would do. Because I just kind of felt like I was told, like, you need to do this. There's something else you should do. Don't be afraid it's gonna be alright, try this. You're too comfortable. You need to. So I've always kind of had a lot of guidance. And so, you know, probably in my younger life, it didn't feel comfortable, but as I got older that I just realized, no, that's just what your path sounds like.

Analiza: And then where can we find you like LinkedIn or anywhere else?

Judi: Yeah, on LinkedIn, you can find me. It's Judith Brown Clarke, Ph.D, OLY, you know, I have Instagram and listen, I do not go on it that often. So I can send some things, but I'll just be honest, if you ping me, it'll come to my phone. But probably the easiest is like, you know, you can reach me at Stony Brook University. You can reach me at LinkedIn, under Judith Clark and I just, you know, what I love is I love people that just. Just standing in the noisiest, noisiest place, just with a sense of equilibrium and you know, and hearing the signal and all that noise.

Analiza: Love that so beautiful. Okay. Last question. JudI, yeah. Final ask recommendation or parting thoughts to share,

Judi: I think, you know what I think, I think the final thoughts would be, as I said, the cycle of letting nature inspire you. So you know, the same way that we look in late winter, when the leaves, you know when, when pretty much nature has gone to sleep and the animals have hibernated and so on. It feels like it, you know, it gives you a certain feel of of, not inspiration, um, but then spring comes and the flowers come and the migratory animals come back, and they start hibernating, and someone, and we have to think about that now that you know what may feel like a dormant time, or it may feel like a time of celebration, is that we were going to keep cycling this. But, you know, through each cycle, we have to figure out and be bio inspired. It's like, you know, how do we do this better? How do we do this with a level of cooperation? So we're just not seeing these things so polarizing, we see it galvanizing.

Analiza: We'll get there. JudI, thank you so much for your inspiration. I love so much the connections with nature, with faith, with this Olympian, wow, accomplishments. So grateful to you. Thank you, and

Judi: Thank you for having this time for me in this conversation, I've truly enjoyed it.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time to hear today's podcast. 3 things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, you can get a free chapter of my book, The Myth of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership at analizawolf.com/freechapter. And lastly, if you're interested in executive coaching, please reach out to me at analiza@analizawolf.com. Thank you so very much