Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipino-American executive leadership coach and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the U.S. Air Force. I'm also the author of The Myth of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership. It's based on the lessons learned by many women of color leaders, including those on this podcast. We talk with successful CEOs and C-suite women leaders of color and learn about their leadership journeys. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. If you're a woman or a woman of color who wants to sit at that table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I'm so excited to be here with Jillian Juman today. Jillian is a seasoned educational leader with over two decades of experience, especially leading urban middle and high schools in Brooklyn, New York and South LA. She's currently the CEO of Envision Education in Oakland, with a proven track record in advancing academic achievement, student engagement and college readiness. Fun fact about Jillian is that she is a dancer, so she holds advanced degrees in educational leadership and dance education, alongside dual undergrad degrees in psychology and anthropology of dance, a woman of many, many, many talents. Jillian, thank you so much for being here.

Jillian: Thanks for having me. This is fun. It's fun to see you.

Analiza: Jillian, let's talk about identity. You and I care a lot about identity, so I'd love to ask, how do you identify, and how has that shaped your career?

Jillian: Yeah, I think at different times I have said different things, so I think now I consider myself I checked the box black, black woman, black woman leader. I think at different times I was raised in a mostly white community in a suburb. My mom white, kind of from Malibu, just like a very kind of suburban, I would say, upper middle class to just maybe wealthy kind of background.

And then my dad was from Texas. We grew up in the same county that enslaved us, right? And so a very different experience. And so his, I think he just kind of fought to not only survive, but just kind of thrive. So he came, he played football, right? The stereotypical way that black men could move up. And then met my mom, and I think he saw, I mean, they fell deeply in love. If you talk to them, their love story is intense over many decades. But really, I also think he saw her as an opportunity to have something different than what he had. He had foster care. His life was tough. And so I watched my parents, you know, they got married, had, you know, a passionate love affair. And I watched my parents be deeply in love, married, but have very different experiences.

And so for me, I was always just trying to figure out which part of that experience I was a part of. So my mom, you know, when she had hard times, she knew to get therapy right. She had access to things that I saw, that my dad was just kind of really struggling through. What does it look like to just be a black man living in a white community, and oftentimes he was the only one, and then having biracial children, in which they both grew up in a time where you didn't really talk about it. So, you know, I remember going to my mom when I got called the N word, and my mom's just like, they're just really jealous of you, right? So, like, that was the conversation. My dad didn't want to talk about things that were painful.

So I think for me, I just kind of sat back and was just kind of like, who am I? And I know I'm part of two things that aren't necessarily weaving together in society. And I remember thinking that very young elementary school just being like something is just something about the way that we're living isn't gelling, and it's not about our nuclear family in the house, it's when we leave that it's not working. And so I kind of moved at different times, you know, trying to identify as biracial, and then at different times, white, white folks would say, Oh, you're too dark to be part of whiteness, right? You, you're you're this. I remember rebelling against that. I remember going to college and for the first time, having black friends and being like, Oh, they understand me.

And then I think just kind of coming into my liberation, and also kind of understanding my Dad's experience more after death, after he died, I think I knew him better than he did when he was living, but really identifying, what does it mean to be able. Black woman, to be in power in that to have kind of a biracial experience and also have a white experience, but as an outsider, and what does it mean to identify with a community that does understand me, and there's different forms of blackness, and I also had to deeply understand that, that what blackness doesn't look like one thing, it looks like multiple things. And so I actually am included into that package.

And so that's been a journey. And I would say the last five, five to 10 years is when I really kind of came into myself and was able to say, This is who I am, no matter who defines me. So that's a long story there. But anyways, that's kind of that's the circular pathway. And I do think being part of dance helped me define that my dad was in the theater. We were a very Dance Theater family. That's how we communicated. And so it allowed me to kind of process what all the cultures were. I got into African dance. I got into, you know, different ways of, you know, my first production I put on was called black face to really identify the history behind what that really means in this country. Julian,

Analiza: It's beautiful because there's an interweaving and an exploration of that sound, that sounded like it started early, like when you were young, and realizing that there was a disconnect, and having a mom who was trying to be beautiful, like they're just jealous of you, right? Versus a dad who had lived through severe racism, and you had said earlier that, I think I knew him better, actually, after he passed. Can you talk about that?

Jillian: He was, you know, he was brought up in a secret you don't tell secrets, right? His name, I mean, his dad was also a secret. No one was supposed to know who it was, even though I know. So there was, like, a whole you don't talk about your past, you don't talk about painful things, and some of that has to do with the South and keeping secrets and preserving that, and some of that had to do, I think, with preserving himself and just kind of his own story, and who was safe to tell the story too. So I think there was a little bit of that after he passed. I got very deep into ancestry, and so I tracked down where his dad was. I tracked down where he lived. I remember driving to his house and seeing the little shack that he grew up in, and just kind of standing outside of it. So there was just I was able to track his history in a way that he would.

I didn't feel the freedom to talk to family members openly. Sometimes his family would say, Let Let the dead live like you know, kind of, let it, let it lie, kind of, but for the most part, people were okay with telling stories. So I learned that, you know, he was moved to California very early by his mom to protect him, because there was gangs, there was violence. He was in and out of taking care of his siblings in foster care. There was some very serious violence that happened to him early on that might have been sexual, right?

So there were just really hard things that explained why he coped through drinking, why he kind of went into himself and felt alone, why he got himself through college and then didn't really know how to change and grow as his body grew. Right? Because doing athletics and doing theater when you're older and trying to raise a family and try to keep up with the Joneses is hard. And so who do you go to for that, right? And so I think I have a deep sense of him, and I think spiritually, I've been able to connect with him just kind of his energy, what he wanted for me. He gave me everything that he couldn't have. And so, yeah, I even tear up when I think about that, right? And so some of that, that stuff, all happened after he died, which is a shame. It's a shame. I wish I could have sat with him right now and said, Thank you, and I'm sorry. I'm sorry for the pain you had.

Analiza: There is that mantra that says sometimes we see on teacher T-shirts that we are our ancestors' wildest dreams, and it makes me think of that because we are so much of a product of their sacrifice, and yet they themselves didn't get to experience a lot of the liberation that we're trying to achieve. So I think I thank you for that story. Jillian, you had said earlier that there's this liberation that, and not to say that, we've arrived, right? Not to say that, but it's a journey. And yet you mentioned that where it's a powerful word, powerful word for women of color and others.

Me listening to you trying to say, I want that I don't feel that I belong based on my history, based on I also was raised in very white spaces, and actually. Heard from someone that said it's better to raise your children in places where you know they can belong, where they see more of their people who look like them. And it's this quandary, right? You want to, quote, unquote, move up, keep up. And access often looks very white, and yet liberation. Isn't that the point? Right? Isn't that the point of life? Isn't that the point of what we want for our young people ourselves? So I'm curious as to what you think about your journey, and of course, each of those stops, sometimes difficult, are important parts of our journey. What would you say about that liberation journey that was, you know, what for others on the similar path, wanting liberation. Here are things to consider based on my Jillian's experience that helped me arrive where I am. As you see, those stops have been.

Jillian: I think my liberation journey is run around curiosity. There's things that have popped up at different times, and I have allowed myself at times to follow them, whether it's spiritual journey, whether it's dance, whether it's, you know, I never at any point was like, let me be a CEO, or let me be a principal, or let me be a superintendent. Like none of those things have ever been in any journal. I think it's more about I'm curious about this. Let me actually allow myself to play in that a little bit. Let me tap into it. And 99% of stuff doesn't go anywhere, right? I'll just explore it and not go but for those 1% of things that do, it's where I'm supposed to be at that particular time.

And I do think, you know, I have a brother who's very goal oriented, so he's like, I'm going to have this by the time I'm 30,40, 50, right? And I always admire that. I also notice the times where he is going a different pathway, because life takes you that way. And so I, I think I have allowed myself to be curious, to play, to notice when I don't fit, and maybe it's not a judgment about me. And I think that's been a big thing is there's been different roles in my life. There's been different things I did take a risk on, and it wasn't a good fit.

And I think my younger self would have said, I'm not good enough. I'm not doing this well enough. I am. I need to be different. I need to be like them or her or him, whatever the whatever it was in the room. And then now I'm kind of in a place of and in my liberated self, it's actually, it's just because it's not the right fit for now, or I'm not willing to make the adjustment that's needed to fit in, because this is just who I am, and I can tell the difference and trust my intuition enough to tap in to say, is it a learning skill, or is it actually just not a good kind of spiritual kind of fit for myself? And I don't think I trusted myself earlier. I think sometimes I would think, Oh, if I just learned more, or if I was just better, and sometimes that's true, but I can tell the difference. And I wish I could go back to myself earlier and say, Actually, Jillian, you did know. You did know in those moments when you needed to learn a skill and go somewhere and get some wise person to help you, right? And I have done that where I've said, Help me, and I've also known when it just wasn't a good fit. So I think you know when I'm looking at myself and my best self is like, I just, I trust, I trust where I where I need to get help. I trust when I know the answer myself and I kind of have to sit with it. That doesn't mean it's easy. None of this is easy. I don't come home at any point and say, oh, you know, I know all the answers. But I'm able to sit down and say, like, Jillian, you do though. Let's actually take a week or two to actually figure out what you do know.

And sometimes I'll go into the woods. I think I've shared that with you before. Like, I get a lot of answers. Taking a walk on a pathway with trees and just kind of saying, what do I really understand about myself, and where am I at right now? And there's usually no advice that other people give me that I haven't thought about myself. And so it's usually I'm seeking validation, not that I don't have knowledge for myself. So that's, you know, that's been, I wish you know, 20 year old Julian had that I wasn't. I was insecure.

Analiza: I hear a few things. One is curiosity and play, yeah. Second is to also know that it's not you. Sometimes it's actually not the right place for you, and that's not the right fit. And third, it's really leaning into trusting you, your gut, your instinct, and taking those practices and really allowing yourself space to sort out the play and the curiosity and the whether or not you fit, like you already have the answers if you can give yourself space. Yeah, yep. So Julian, let's talk about this, because I love that you and I connect on spiritual practices. And there's been so much play and curiosity. I see you lean into that and often, right? It's like, Well, do you go to your Sunday practice? Do you have this? It's like, traditional, right? And so I would love, if you're open into it, to share, what are ways in which your spiritual practices and you talked about nature walks, literally going into the woods. What does it look like in terms of the spiritual aspect you've talked about ancestry, but other ways in which you've opened up and played?

Jillian: Yeah, I think, I mean, there's so many differences particularly in the last two years. I think I'm just kind of like, what you do that let me try it. But I think ultimately it's, I tap into my grandmother quite often, and that's just through meditation. Just kind of like, what's your guidance for me? I know she's around me very much. You know she's the one that kind of taught me a lot of spiritual work, Crystal work, meditation, work, connecting to something higher than yourself. So I do a lot of connecting with that. I also like deities, similar to religious practice I would imagine. I have never really studied the Bible, but just like what previous teachings and readings can give us, what's the nugget of truth that I can kind of think about, that I can meditate on, how can I manifest what I really want out of my life?

And that doesn't mean that doesn't mean like I want $500 it's not that. It's more about what I want. You know, I have right now. I have a map in front of me, and I'm looking in the middle of it, and it has releasing, letting go, imagining resiliency, like that's what I want for myself. And so what does it mean to, like, every day with intention, kind of stop and say this, this is what this means for me. I might even pull a card right, like there's tarot cards, or even, like, other kinds of cards that might just give me, like another way to look at the world and kind of inspire and think about it, or think about what somebody else might need from me in a conversation.

And so I'll even go that far to kind of say there's all kinds of relationships that I have, both professionally and personally, and sometimes I have to think outside of myself. I need to get into my other best self that sometimes when I'm in the real rush, I can't tap into very quickly. And so how do I slow down in the mornings really intentionally, think about my day, have a cup of tea, and really think about how I can be my higher, best self when I'm calm and when I'm actually kind of, I don't want to say relaxed, but I don't know what the right word is. It's like, just in a better sense of like, being able to take in all perspectives. When I'm in the Go, go, I'm a driver, right? So when I'm driving, I only have one perspective, which is like, get it done.

Analiza: I mean, I've seen you in action, and it is intense and also effective, right? You have had this career progressively, very senior roles now, CEO, and there's a lot of pressure, right? You're supporting families, young people, of course, your staff, and there are results you want to drive to, and there's a sense of urgency, if not us, then who? And if not you know now, then when, right? So, so I'm curious, how does one balance that right, the urgency of the moment, the urgency of all these needs, the urgency of the culture we're in, and also open up that space like, can you give me in your past month, or a time when you know what, yes, there is a lot of crunch, and I commit to this practice, or this choice that I make right now to open up space to help bring this concept alive. Right? It's like, it's so lovely, and yet we go back into worlds, and it's hard to practice.

Jillian: Yeah, I think that the only thing that's really worked for me is to manhandle my schedule around it. And I have, you know, different versions of what I've done that have not looked so great, but so let me give you an example. In the last month, I have in my calendar time for me to stop and journal. So it's in my calendar for me to do that, and if it's not in my calendar, I'm not going to do it, because I am very calendar driven. The other piece is, so that's stop, and it'll literally say stop and journal. And then I have prompts on my table on what to do, so I don't have to think about it or get distracted, which I will easily do if there's something on my mind.

The other thing is, I have blocked out schedule times throughout the month where I will do what I'm supposed to do. So for instance, last month, I had three days and I took my husband and I to a retreat every year where we take a step back and say, like, what have we accomplished? Because we're both in each other's lives to lift, lift each other up. Right? By the way, that's our journey together, is to make sure that we are together in this practice, but we also are like looking at each other's goals and helping each other. So every year we go away, it's in the woods. It's a little bougie, though, because my husband hates bugs, so we get something kind of nice out in the woods, and we literally just kind of say, what did we accomplish in the last year, and Are we proud of ourselves? And what do we need to do in the next year? And then we do our kind of manifestation posters together, and he hated it in the beginning, and now I have to tell you, he loves it. It's like the thing he looks forward to.

So that's, you know, we book that out, and then we have another time in the fall where we come and we do a little bit of a step back. Are we meeting our goals? Do we need to help each other in a different way? So all of that is built into my calendar ahead of time. So 2025 2026 is already scheduled there, and then the rest of my life builds around it. It includes walks, you know, walks to the beach, walks, you know, outside, getting out there and doing some meditative journaling or doing some yoga work. I have a retreat planned for the summer so I can just go away with myself. So anyway, so that's how I do it is just like force myself through calendaring.

Analiza: For the people around you, I hope they have a CEO who actually walks the walk. Because frankly, that's not that rare. Jillian and I so appreciate that you embody it, and you, yeah, you have such clear systems you're a systems person. I know that from your background, and it shows up in your personal life. I would love you just to if you could just spend 30 seconds with those powerful people who are just efficient and crushing, like just getting all the goals done, and seeing that it's about the hustle and the effectiveness. Can you please do a little bit of preaching to say, here's why this matters.

Jillian: Yeah, it matters because when you slow down, you could actually do the same amount of things that you were doing before, just with more ease. I think you have to trust yourself to get it done. And I think some of us are like, we gotta get it done. Fast, fast, fast. Otherwise we'll forget it. We'll lose momentum. We won't get it done. Things will fall apart. We won't get the right people, we have all these reasons why we have to move in a particular way.

And then when you slow down, you realize that you're still smart, you're still smart, you're still brilliant, you're still urgent, you're still all the things, you're just moving differently. And so it's, it's been a learning curve for me, and I wish I would have known it. We're still the same people, regardless of how fast we move or whatever way we move. So I'm accomplishing the same amount of things that I did before. Sometimes I have guilt, because I have that driver guilt, right where it's like, oh my god, I should be working all the time and doing everything. And then I sit down, I'm like, wait a minute. I just accomplished everything this year. Everything I wanted to do. I accomplished less stress, and I still have my hair I was using at one point, right? Like, you know, anyway. So that's why I think we need to trust that our brilliance doesn't go anywhere if we just change the way that we do it.

Analiza: That's beautiful. I love that. And I did want to make a note to Jillian, before we move to lightning round, that the thing about your hair, the thing about sickness, the thing about getting like real autoimmune disease is real. And when we don't, we actually hurt our bodies, and that hurts us in the movement in the long run. So thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, all right, let's go to lightning round. Ready?

Jillian: Okay, let's do it.

Analiza: Chocolate or vanilla.

Jillian: Chocolate.

Analiza: Cooking or take out.

Jillian: Take out.

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane,

Jillian: Climb a mountain.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of one to 10,10 being Mariah Carey?

Jillian: Oh two, maybe one.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Jillian: Never in public.

Analiza: What's a book you read that you loved, or just a recent book?

Jillian: Intuitive finances.

Analiza: What's your favorite way to practice self care?

Jillian: Ooh, taking a walk in the woods.

Analiza: What's a good professional development you’ve done?

Jillian: I've had so many I'm doing one right now where it's learning about Persephone. It's really great.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Jillian: Stop it. You got it. Stop questioning yourself.

Analiza: And then, where can we find you? Like LinkedIn?

Jillian: Yeah, find me on LinkedIn. That's easy.

Analiza: And then last question, do you have a final ask recommendation, parting thoughts to share?

Jillian: I think that the more and more women come together this little far left, and have these conversations, the ones that you're having which is brilliant, and I appreciate you so much, the more we can take away the myth that our natural brilliance is enough. It's just enough. Love it.

Analiza: Jillian, thank you so much for our conversation. This is such an honor.

Jillian: I feel the same way, and thanks so much for thinking of me.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time to hear today's podcast. 3 things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, you can get a free chapter of my book, The Myth of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership at analizawolf.com/freechapter. And lastly, if you're interested in executive coaching, please reach out to me at analiza@analizawolf.com. Thank you so very much