Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipino-American executive leadership coach and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the U.S. Air Force. I'm also the author of The Myth of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership. It's based on the lessons learned by many women of color leaders, including those on this podcast. We talk with successful CEOs and C-suite women leaders of color and learn about their leadership journeys. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. If you're a woman or a woman of color who wants to sit at that table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

Hi everyone. I'm excited to be with Dr Nancy Gutierrez today. She is the president and lead executive officer of the Leadership Academy. It's a nationally recognized nonprofit dedicated to driving transformational leadership development for educators at all levels of the school system. And under Nancy's leadership, the organization has supported educators across 41 states and more than 430 school districts equipping them with the skills to create sustainable context driven change. That's incredible Nancy. In terms of many awards that Nancy has been awarded, she was named California middle grades principal the year in 2010, 100 most influential leaders in New York City, by city and state. In 2020 she became a teacher and principal in her hometown of East San Jose, California, principal of Renaissance Academy. She's earned her Doctor of Education Leadership from Harvard's Graduate School of Education. She's also a 2019 Buhara Aspen education fellow, which is how I know Nancy, and she is the co author of stay and prevail. Students of color don't need to leave their communities to succeed, which was published in 2023 Nancy, I'm so excited about having you here. Thank you so much for joining us.

Nancy: It is my honor. I am thrilled that you would want to be in conversation with me.

Analiza: Nancy, I asked this question because I believe that identity is a power for us. So can you share, how do you identify and how has that shaped your career path?

Nancy: Thank you for the question. I mean, I'd say, First, I have to just acknowledge that I'm the daughter of Maria del supporters and the granddaughter Castillo who brought us to this country. And we've always been my heroes, who have always been people I've looked to to say, like, wow, anything's possible, who taught me the meaning of sacrifice and of service. So that's just one to identify as a queer Chicana. And it's interesting, because in my path and my identity, it's always been anchored in chicanisma and being Mexicana, in being from East San Jose, California, and I had to be very comfortable adding the queer part to the beginning of that to say for Chicana, but I do want to stand in my fullness and share that I'm also one of six, one of six kids, and I never knew a moment when only the six of us and my mom weren't at home. We always had so many people living with us. I have so many extended family members, cousins, aunts, uncles, big, big family. And then a final one I'll say, is that I'm a new mama. I have a two little ones as usual, and asking an interesting shift on my identity recently to stand in that as well, to say, like, wow, I'm parenting two beautiful little ones, kind on

Analiza: Nancy. I also have to mention, in both of us being in the West Village, in the village here in New York City, we're neighbors. Its proximity is such a rarity. So I love that we're neighbors as well. When you think about your path, how did those identities shape where you are today? You have a huge role. You've had an impact. I mean, in so many different areas across the country. How did that shape you?

Nancy: Well, as you were asking me that question, I was thinking, Wait a minute, I didn't say that I'm like a former teacher and principal, district leader and all those things that were a huge part of who I am. The way that my identity shaped that is that I gave back to the home that I was raised and that I take such pride in that marker, that identity marker. It goes back to the first book that you mentioned around Saint prevail, featuring stories of people like me and so many across the country who gave back to the community. Everyone told you to get out. They say, Hey, you have some potential. Do you want to be successful? Don't Get out. Go over there, remove yourself from your home, from your family, from the people you grew up with, the people you love. And so that that is always, I've always rejected that notion. And to be a teacher, you know, only a couple blocks from where I grew up, and to be a principal at school, my mom went to my aunts and uncles, siblings, has been the greatest joy. All of that I think I take with me as foundational to how I have developed as a leader. And I can tell you so many more stories. I mean you and I have talked online about things like, what it means to come home, right, and what it means to do this work. And I think all of those values have shaped me to be in this role currently leading an organization, a leadership academy that started in New York City, is 20 plus years old, and you would say, Wait a minute. I thought you were saying you gotta stay and prevail. You have to stay in your community and give back. What I have found is that my definition of home has actually expanded over time, to not just be San Jose, but to be every community across this country that serves our most vulnerable students and students who have similar stories, like my my friends, my family, my community,

Analiza: I love so much that the commonality that it doesn't have to be this is my neighborhood and this Is Mike, yeah, but actually, there's so much shared pieces of our stories that that bind us together. It's less about separation, right? That is a myth, and it's much more, actually, we are so much in community, if we can recognize what I see, I can see you, and when I see you, I can see me. And it's like, she thinks, yeah, we just, I just never learned that as a kid. So let me, let me give back to you, but can I add something quickly?

Nancy: So I'm thinking about how we've met, you know, through buhara. And I love that Bahara creates affinity spaces, and they create bridging spaces, because I think those conversations emerge as a result of finding commonality in similar pathways and being indifference, right? Like being not indifferent, but But sitting and eating community people who are not like us. And anyway, I just wanted to say that I love how I love how we went through that experience too.

Analiza: And it also takes leaving our community to find that difference, because if I stayed home right my entire life, I don't think I would have grown as much as I have by being exposed to lots of difference and lots of disagreement, it has provided me with a ton of growth. I'm curious for you, Nancy, when you think about you, know you as a young Nancy here you're younger, and there's things you learned right as a child, and you realize now the Wiser Nancy actually those were not true when I think about my career and what actually got me to where I am today. Do you see any of those myths?

Nancy: I mean, for starters, I think I learned pretty early on what not low expectations are, but no expectations look like, right? And in some ways I don't know that. I thought I deserved more. And there was something in me that said this isn't right. This doesn't feel right. And I acted out ways that one would act out when disrespected, right,and we got in trouble a lot at school. I was always in trouble with my mom. He got home, she always got calls. And it took me getting to meet a certain teacher in eighth grade, Mr. Lovelace, that really helped me see that number one, like I deserved very high expectations. And I was actually quite smart, that I could share my stories and my experiences in written form. He told me that I was a writer. I should explore, think more about that, and even improve my award. And I think the younger we didn't know the possibility of my genius. And they even get nervous seeing something like that because it is removed, it just feels a little bit egotistical right to say something like that, but trying to embrace the gifts we all bring. We all have a genius within us, and we have to find that. And I don't think I knew that a hand building me, I thought and and my pathway, I think, from that point in middle school on has been a discovery of what I love, what I'm good at, what I connect with, what makes you feel whole of the spaces that I want to create. I remember being in my undergrad years, and I was in a course and the professor was saying, Oh, I think someone, one of us, a student, complains, hey, there aren't, there aren't a lot of women here as professors. And she said, Well, who in here will come back and be that person? Right? So I think, I think I also learned that over time, and it wasn't about complaining about my circumstances, but about becoming the change I wanted to see in the world, about second. To that and really understanding that I had the ability to do that. It was about where my fit was and what I was going to pursue. And so I think I knew that, I don't think I knew that I had that much power, and I don't think our communities know how empowered we really are to step into exactly what the changes we want to see.

Analiza: I want to double click on that as I reflect on listening to you. It took me listening and hearing from someone else that I could be CEO, that I even considered it just was not in my set of things that I was going to even seek so so much, because sometimes you do need someone to tell you, even though it's been in you the whole time to hold up a mirror. And as an executive coach Nancy, I love that. It's such an honor to just know you're a badass, right? Like I just am holding up. This is not me. This is so thank you for sharing that, and thank you for sharing that. Sometimes, when we don't see it, we can step into it. We can be that person. We can only recognize that, yes, I am deserving. We are deserving, and I'm standing for so much more as I take this role, as we take these roles, that it's opening possibilities for others to see themselves. Sometimes we don't get to hear that we can do it. But if I see you, Nancy, I'm like, wow, Nancy, did it like, maybe I can do it too. So that makes me so happy. Nancy, did you want to be CEO? Like, was that in you, stay and prevail. I also want to be CEO.

Nancy: No, no, I love it. I should say I love it. But if I'm back up a little bit in my new trajectory, like, I loved teaching. I was a teacher. I loved organizing. I loved making the community a better place. And my mom was a huge influence of that. On Saturdays, she would have us get up and go straight to the school and pick up the trash. She would have us do so much work with the community in the service of our own home. And when I fell into the teaching profession, I was like, This is it? This is what I want to do. It was the most incredible experience teaching elementary and middle school. And the only reason I became a principal was because I was a parent Maria visa and she came in to observe my seventh grade class that day, and her son, David, was in my class, so she's observing the class. And afterwards I came over here, and I was like, I was like, let's sit down. What questions do you have? You want to look at whatever you want, whatever questions you have. I'm here to answer them and be your partner in this work. She's like, I don't have, I don't want you to ask you questions like I want to organize you come to a meeting you're having tonight. And she was hosting a meeting at her home where a group of middle school parents were coming together to to envision a school they wanted for their kids, something she knew her kid would never benefit from, but she knew that future generations in East San Jose would I would go to the meeting that night, meet so many amazing, predominantly Spanish speaking parents who were dreaming of what could be. I would open that school a couple of years later, and we were part of the first set of small schools in San Jose or East San Jose, specifically, learning from New York City, learning from Oakland, learning from the small schools movement, and that kind of set up the leadership trajectory from where I used to always think like the principal is like, that's the other side. No way. I'm a teacher. And when you step into it, you're like, Whoa. Like, the level of scale and influence impact that's possible as a result of taking on these bigger roles are harder, but they're amazing. And so the work I do today is work I wish I would have had when I was a school principal. That we are able to support school principals and leaders across this country, across 40 plus states is an incredible gift, and it's it. And I feel like, No, I don't expect to step into this role. And what a gift to be able to do that and to give back in ways that I wish I would have had.

Analiza: I love a story of I wish I had had this. So let me bring it into the world. Let me birth it into the world that means so much to me. I want to talk about you staying and prevailing, because it's not, it is not the story, right, like it's often right, like your success when you leave your success when you go out and get the degrees, and you keep on going, and hopefully we'll see you for the holidays. And yet, you, you mentioned earlier your mom, you you and your mom would pick up trash in your community.

Nancy: All my siblings, all six of us, she is always out.

Analiza: I mean, it's so so this is something really, personally I find unique hearing from other career stories. It's usually TFA. You go to TFA. Right? And then you go somewhere else, and then you just keep on going, and you get the senior role, usually not in your city. So can you talk about what? What was it about Stay, stay where you are, like that you were clear that you would stay in your community and serve your committee, like, what was, what was the thing? What was the conviction that there was no other question,

Nancy: if I step in to do it, who would I remember getting the call too. So I opened up the small school during that time we were, we were district docket, small schools, right? And I remember getting the call for the superintendent, saying, hey, like, I need you here. Like, I get it and you're doing some really innovative amazing work. We've been there for a couple years, I need you at the lowest performing comprehensive Middle School. And the first thing I thought was, oh my gosh, like, my mom was there, like, my sibling, like, that was, there was no answer, but yes, in that moment, it was like, Absolutely, and I remember we doing this activity with the other principles, and people were writing little notes. We write notes on each other's charts as a workload, and someone brave, like, good luck, like, there was this deep reputation of how, how violence, how much the parents didn't care, how all the narratives sent that feed. Communities of color often, and I felt very differently because that was my home. So the idea that someone who loved the community would come back and serve it was a no brainer for me. Absolutely, I was in and and I have to say, it was some of the hardest work I've ever done. And there's also I had to acknowledge too, that coming back to the community wasn't immediately met with open arms by the community, right? People were, of course, happy and like, well, one of us, but are you really one of us or did you change? Like, are you? Are you part of them now? Like, how are you going to show up? Like, how do people show up? When you add layers of power and positionality, yes, and title and all those things, you know? And so I remember my very first community meeting, and a parent came up to me at the end and I'm hugging everybody. I'm speaking Spanish, and I'm feeling really good. And she came to just give me a word that basically said, like, not going to trust you until you show me you're different.. And I remember being really blown away by that, you have to let your ego, you have to, like, tell your ego, you need to be humble. And in fact, in the book it's Nabel, we talk about, like, the listening chores people do often to get to know the communities. If you're from the community, you're like, yeah, not this, but I know, I know this community, but do you? I hadn't been there for years. I had to relearn, and I had to do a lot of listening, and I asked the hard questions, not just like, what's your hope five years from now, but how has school hurt you or your family in the past? Wow, like creating spaces. And the reason I know that is because when I told my mom I was becoming the principal of Fisher Middle School in East San Jose, where she went. She cried, she was upset, and she could only tell me really harsh memories of things she had experienced there. And why would I want to go back there? Why would John and so the pain people carry in their bodies as a result of bad schooling experiences. Those are projected onto us as leaders. We walk in those spaces. We can't ignore them. You can't be like, Yeah, that wasn't me. That person, this person, the blank. And you have to, actually, if you don't listen and you don't own what happened, who will, right? And so those, those are just some like, ever again, beautiful, beautiful years of leadership work and really, really hard and so personal, so personal.

Analiza: I hear a few things, it's that if I don't step in, who will, like, truly, you know that. So it's a call too, I want to be the one to really change the trajectory. I love that. And not to say you are the one, but to say that has changed. Second I hear, there's a lot of listening and humility, and this is really brave, honestly, Nancy, because you're opening it, I'm ripping open the wound. I mean, that is as hard as it gets. There's real trauma there, and you are now listening for a lot of trauma and pain, so incredibly brave.

Nancy: I can't say that I did that perfectly, okay, right? I learned a lot from and almost the community really helped me learn what it meant to do that well, to do that well.

Analiza: I actually want to know, because In these positions, it's really hard. It's probably one of the hardest things, because it's real for them, and also it wasn't personally me. So I want to know what does it mean to do this?

Nancy: Well, I'll give you an example from the leading School, an example from being a CEO right now. I think from the leading school perspective, it was about being willing to hear the hard stuff, right? Like, be willing to give my time. Like, yeah, I have Cafecito corni sutier . They could come and have cafecito with me and talk about whatever they want, but usually my parents weren't going to talk about these things unless I actually asked them, right? It meant going to the apartment complex and hosting a meeting there. Yeah, it meant, like, really putting myself out there to engage. It meant, I remember when we were first starting, the first small school we went to, we go to the churches, right? And we'd hang out afterwards, after the churches, and we'd be hanging out with parents and connecting with them. They met me, showing up to big community events like, I think, always being present. I had to really earn trust in order for people to be real with me. So it was like leadership was high visibility, right? Like, I had to become highly visible, and that meant getting a lot of time to really learn to say, like, yeah, like, I'm I'm here, I'm here, I'm with you. I know you don't trust me, but I'm going to do everything in my power to earn it. And I know it's not just, I know I just don't get it because I was, I, I was appointed to this role, right? Do you want me to go to the CEO role? You have a question about, no,

Analiza: I want to ask you about that. Because ask me, yeah, it's like, listening. Okay, great. Let's do a listening tour. Like, what's my list of questions? Where do I hit and where the church is? I love this, and yet it's not enough. And you're glad because I get I haven't earned your trust. I've done the listening tours, and there's more. Can you talk about that? Because now you're in the seat and you're, you're you're now causing change. What are the things? What are the trust moves to get this community where you're from to actually believe you that you're here for them. Like, what were those moves?

Nancy: Yeah, I mean, you have to reflect back so you can't just listen. You have to reflect back on what you heard. And people have to experience quick wins. And that's cliche, but it's true. What one quick win was the very first year at that school, the comprehensive school, we had 15 150 plus behavior referrals to the office. Wow, right? I'm thinking, I'm thinking to myself, Okay, how are we going to do this? I had an amazing team, easy to teachers, and an amazing admin team. Was it about making punishment harsher? Was it about saying, like, control your kids? It was about flipping it, flipping the way we do things. So what we did was we created what we called, like, an E squared referral. He took me back, and then you say, taking me back to, like, my principal dates here. But an E squared referral was exhibiting excellence and the and the the theory was like, what if we gave referrals for really awesome things and not for really terrible goals? Hmm, right? Like, how would that flip the culture for both the families and communities, for the teachers and so put it on the triple. Can you remember that? I mean, I suppose when I was in all the time, like, going to the office. You're being defiant. You're being missed. Yeah, you're terrible. And what if it was like, You are so damn smart. Go to the principal right now and take this with you, because I need her to know how amazing. Oh, my God, did you just jump up two levels? Like, go to the principal. Did I do it? I just see you helping out our other student who needed some get out of here right now. Go to the principal's office. What if we could transform the principal's office to a place that celebrated excellence? Wow. And we did and we did that. And so I would call the parents. I would call the family. And, of course, they get nervous. Even though I get nervous right now, my kids are so young, with school calls, what happened and I would say, I'll tell you what happened here, your baby's amazing. Let me tell you. And I would have the details the teacher would write, and the way that shifted, the way we were able to see students, families, teachers, the way teachers start hanging them up on their walls, the way kids would hold them to collect them. I mean, that's just one example of a quick win we did as a result of hearing from people that all we did was call them with bad news, that all we did was create, like us versus them, but we felt so embarrassed, so ashamed to come to school. Granted, kids still did things wrong, but that decreased exponentially, and when they did something wrong, we would create spaces to figure that out together with the families as well. But that's just one example of a quick way, kind of at a school based.

Analiza: The setting is so beautiful, because how often do we hear? Things are right about school, because usually not the thing. If there's a call as not those, not what call we want. And I also love that it came from listening, but I heard you, and we're gonna we're going to change who we are and what school is like.

Nancy: This will be a place of beauty and testing things out. It could have failed, it could have not worked. And we did plenty of things that didn't work, right as a result. But the whole idea of innovation, right is experimentation. You have to just like, try it out, take a swing, see what happens.

Analiza: Absolutely upfront. And it's not failure, it's okay. Let's try something else, like it's life. So it's modeling for others that we can try new things, and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. But the point is that we keep 5% modeling Nancy, we're ready for lightning round questions, okay?

Nancy: Okay.

Analiza: Chocolate or Vanilla?

Nancy: Always vanilla.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Nancy: Ah, if I'm not the one cooking, cooking, otherwise take out. And I live in New York City, I know, so you can get all the things.

Analiza: Would you rather climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Nancy: Planes are not for me. I'm afraid of heights. I mean, I take planes all the time, which I won't work all the time, but I don't want to climb a mountain either. But I'm from the Bay Area, and in California, people have their favorite farmers markets and their favorite hikes. So I'll go with the hike.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being Mariah Carey?

Nancy: I'm terrible. I was made fun of because I sing so badly. So I just try to buy everybody drinks like, just have fun. I'll do it in a group setting, but that's it.

Analiza: What's a good book that you read or a recent book you've read?

Nancy: This feels shameless to say, but this morning, I was just reading our newest book, The Leadership Academy of coaching, coaching, education leaders and all. And I'll just say that, yes, I'm one of the co authors, but my two co authors for me, represent, like, the 20 plus years of leadership, coaching expertise that. But I just appreciate it so much. Writing this book with them was a gift, and I reference it all the time. Always have it with me. I always, I mean, if you need good questions to ask, if you are thinking about what it means to help the coaching cycle from start to finish. If you're trying to think about what it means to push somebody who's so amazing to their learning edge. So it sounds boring and it sounds shameless.

I love to give props to my co authors.

Analiza: Tell me Nancy about your favorite way or one of your favorite ways to practice self care.

Nancy: Wow. it might be spending time with my family, having the still moments, putting the laptop away, like trying to stop working on the weekends, to be super present. That's hard to do, and it's important. And I think the other place to see my one of my strongest values is family, but is making sure that my kids and my family who live here in New York City are so close to our California Family. And when I watch them all play together, or we always hang out like we're going to Mexico, later this week, on a big family trip, like those moments are so special, and I feel so taken care of in those moments and and really have peace to be the bigger family.

Analiza: What is your definition of a boss mama?

Nancy: A boss mama? Well, I guess stepping forward, stepping into that that I used to think that I was a really good boss, and that above all, it was like how I engaged and how I treated people. I mean, my former coach, oh, actually, my current coach, Bob Keaton, used to always say to me, I don't care how great your resume is, it'll last you 15 minutes. What matters, how you treat people, how you engage with people. And I believe that to be true, and I realized I'm being a boss, being someone's supervisor, leading an organization, leading a school, leading whatever it is that you lead, still placing these, this level of power and hierarchy and big responsibility in your hands. So a boss mama for me would be like taking really good care of that power, doing it and using it, leveraging ways that are good to create space to share that power, and using the collective brilliance of your team to do good things for the world, for kids. Mm.

Analiza: Hmm, what's a good professional development you've done?

Nancy: So many, obviously my work is in leadership development, professional learning. And we believe in, like, experiential learning. Learn by Doing. So anything that I've learned has always been by getting thrown in and learning by doing. And I mean, I'll take it back to buhara, to where we met, where there's implications for not just how you're thinking and how you're working, but really how you're balancing that with your ability to stay in the game. Because I think one of the biggest leadership lessons I learned, that if I can't stay in the game, like and then what good am I? Right? Like, if I really want to do this work and have that impact in order to stay in the game, in the fresh state and to lead in ways that are helpful for this world, I need to take care of myself too, right? And so that's, that's what I appreciate when, when a professional acknowledges humanity, in addition to all of the really heavy lifting we have to do together.

Analiza: On that note, if you were to give advice to your younger self, what advice would you give? Good?

Nancy: Submit your ego to a task, right? Like Harry says, one of my professors always says, what is the goal? What are we trying to do together? You almost have your ego, whatever your feelings, I always become your relatives of that goal, right? Of making sure that every kid in this country has what I want for my own babies, a place that's nurturing, a place that pushes them to their learning edge, a place that it makes them feel well every time you walk in the door, and that creates opportunities and possibilities that are limitless in life. And that’s what I want.

Analiza: Nancy, where can we find you? Like LinkedIn anywhere else.

Nancy: LinkedIn is my preferred at the moment, and always hits me up, email, our website, www, dot leadership academy.org, people reach out often. People reach out often, for support, for advice, just to check in, to connect. And I'm always responsive as much as I can be, or I refer them to someone else, but, yeah, feel free. Don't be afraid to reach out if I can ever be.

Analiza: of service. And then last question, Nancy, do you have a final ask recommendation? Parting thoughts to share.

Nancy: I'm thinking a lot about what it means to respect the mountain for your question about the hike. And that's Alonso, who's a former Baltimore soup and some of my professors for grad schools always talk about that, right, like, what does it mean to really respect the context to not come in? You mentioned earlier. Now, Lisa, I want to thank you for correcting because you said something like, like you listen to that you could change, that you could be the change and bring that you're like, No, wait a minute, be part of it. Be one of the people engaging in what the community needed. And I think respecting the mountain means just that, right? Like that, no one knows their community as well as community knows themselves right that all we must always be attentive in anything we do, whether we're taking on a new role in the organization, or we are engaged in a new project, to just to pause, to respect the intelligence that is pre existing before your arrival, to understand the beauty and the greatness of the place you are serving, and then to use all of that to do your best in humility, to serve and to be a servant of the space that you are entering. I think that it is my duty to everyone to be a learner, to be a listener, to have that orientation in everything we do. And I think we will be a better society as a result of that, because that includes people who are different from us. It includes listening and learning with people who may not think the same as

Analiza: us. So beautiful. Nancy, thank you so much for these brilliant words and advice and story sharing. I so appreciate you

Nancy: Listen. I've been dying for this invitation to come talk to you at any site. I'm a huge fan of yours, and if you're working, if you're creating this space, and we gotta get together, and we're like neighbors, so I'll see you soon.

Analiza: Thank you.

Thank you so much for carving out time to hear today's podcast. 3 things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, you can get a free chapter of my book, The Myth of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership at analizawolf.com/freechapter. And lastly, if you're interested in executive coaching, please reach out to me at analiza@analizawolf.com. Thank you so very much