Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipino-American executive leadership coach and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the U.S. Air Force. I'm also the author of The Myth of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership. It's based on the lessons learned by many women of color leaders, including those on this podcast. We talk with successful CEOs and C-suite women leaders of color and learn about their leadership journeys. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. If you're a woman or a woman of color who wants to sit at that table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I am excited to be talking with Nan Nan Duffly today. Nan is the first Asian American. Who served on the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court. It's the state's highest court. Nan has an incredibly interesting background. She was born in Indonesia and immigrated to the US with her family when she was six. She later, fast forward, graduated from the University of Connecticut and Harvard Law School. She has a ton of judge experience. Includes probate and family court as justice, work on the Apple Court for the past, I mean for how many decades? I don’t how long you did that, Nan. Before she was a judge, Nan was a partner at Boston's Warner and Stack, and there she specialized in domestic relations cases. Nan, thank you so much for being here.

Nan: I'm very grateful to you. Thanks for inviting me. I'm happy to be here.

Analiza: How do you identify? You can share your mom and dad's quick, you know where they come from. But how do you identify and how does that shape this path that you've gone on this career path?

Nan: I think originally when I was younger, I always thought of myself as part Indonesian and Dutch, but learned as I grew older that I, my parents, my mom was actually Chinese and her. My great-grandfather had immigrated from China to Indonesia where he married.

Analiza: You moved to the US when you were six and yeah.I'm curious, as you went on to Connecticut and Harvard, what was the impetus for law? Was that the path that you had set forth as a child?

Nan: No, I wasn't ever even thinking of that. No. I really was very interested in literature. And I had a mentor who my mother was too fostered that idea. I was going to get a PhD in English literature and probably, and hope to be a professor. That was really my goal until the war and the Vietnam War and all the protests and I participated in a lot of that and. And I learned somewhere along that way from various people. I read about Leonard BoDean and, but a bunch of other lawyers and I thought, wow I didn't have any lawyers in my family.I didn't know a lawyer, but I thought I had no idea that being a lawyer was such a powerful tool, having a law degree. And it was just amazing to me that you could have a law degree and do so much with it. So my initial impulse was to work. I worked for legal services as a non-lawyer as a paralegal just to learn more about it.So I originally thought I was gonna work for legal services. And then as time went on I had more work experiences that just changed. I ended up at a large law firm in the litigation department mostly for the experience and to pay off my law school debt. And I met my mentor there.A wonderful man, Sam Adams. Yes. From that Adams family who had a wonderful, strong wife and a lot of daughters and who, who had gone to the firm to run the firm from the bench, from the superior court, so they could educate his girls. And then I met them. He wanted me to talk to them and about what being a professional woman was like, so they have that point of view.And ultimately I really, I was a lawyer for a while, but he encouraged me to think about being a judge and it was really my mentor's example of what a judge could do and accomplish for other people. That led me down that path.

Analiza: So Nan, I'm imagining how you wanted to go to law school, make an impact, then met Sam Adams, and he encouraged you to be a judge. What about that choice called to you?

Nan: There were so many more people I could help. Rather than just individual clients one-on-one, either through pro bono services or if they could afford it. They were just there, especially. When I started in the probate and family court, which was also an equity court. There were just so many people who had to go to court for whatever reason, and many of 'em were not represented. So that was just, it just seemed like a greater opportunity to do that.

Analiza: Nan, and if Sam Adams hadn't said, you should consider being a judge, you can do so much in the world, do you think that you would've gone on to be a judge?

Nan: No, not unless somebody else had encouraged me. It never occurred to me that I could be a judge.

Analiza: Why hadn't it occurred to you, Nan?

Nan: There weren't very many women on the bench at that point, for one. I don't think there were any women of color at all, but certainly not a lot of women.

Analiza: So walk me here.You get this amazing opportunity to be the first Asian American on this most powerful Supreme Court in Massachusetts, and you walk in, I imagine there's not that many women of color. So how are you with this dynamic? Explain who was on the bench with you.

Nan: Yeah, that's a very good question, except that I must have skipped too much.

Because I'd been on the appeals court and then I was very active as a lawyer. I did pro bono work, I did a lot of lawyers committees for civil rights where I was out in the community. I didn't just wanna be earning money which was great. It was wonderful. I needed to pay my tuition bills.But also there was, I saw it as an incredibly powerful tool having this. Law degree that there was so much opportunity for doing things with it. Good things, meaningful things that I was just searching for what the opportunities were open to me. I hadn't really been a judge. I knew no judges until I met my mentor, but I didn't know any judges.I didn't think I could be one. But he really encouraged me and I think I always remember that now. Women, particularly people of color also, they need encouragement if they haven't had that in their experience with others and their families. At least in those days, I think things have changed.But that was really it. It was, it seemed like an amazing tool that you could do so much with. So much good. So I just hoped that I could have that opportunity and it worked out for me that I was appointed.

Analiza: Nan, you're so humble. You have done so much, and I know you care a lot about having diversity. Can you talk about why this matters as we're both women of color, we both care. But just talk about from your view, especially in that seat, right? Why does it matter to have diverse perspectives?

Nan: It matters to the people who are, who appear in front of you. It matters. It, particularly in, in the courts where I worked, where a lot of people were pro se that meant they were not represented by lawyers 'cause they couldn't afford it.And so they would try to show up by themselves and for them, I think to see someone who might they could see themselves reflected in me either because I was a woman or I was a person of color. Certainly not a white male. I thought that was really important. I think if you're a lawyer, you don't often realize how frightening an experience it is.Particularly for uneducated, maybe women who are not professional women, even if they're educated, they just haven't had that experience. It's a scary place. And if you don't see anybody who looks like you, who, how do you believe that they can understand you? I was only at the beginning of that, and fortunately for the governors who were there at the time and came after that, there was a lot of momentum after that. There were, and we're certainly very diversified now, but that wasn't true then.

Analiza: Nan, I wanna go back to this. It was so very fortunate that you met Sam Adams, that you were able to have mentors who truly were about supporting you and having diversity in the workforce in these pretty high tiers. Very important and powerful roles. And I'm curious from that vantage of having benefited and been blessed with these mentors, I'm curious about your view if you are a woman of color, a diverse leader, and you don't have. That kind of support, would you say keep going or go look elsewhere or because it's you've been, I love how blessed you, you were and are, and I'm curious for people who aren't as blessed, what would you recommend for them?

Nan: And if women haven't considered that as an option for whatever reason, and I know for me it was a big step to even see myself in that role. I always use my position in my past. If I see somebody who might make a great judge, I tell them have you thought of this? This would be a great job for you.I think you would be great at this. But it's different. I think there's much more opportunity and sometimes. Not so much anymore, I think, but over time it has changed. Women tend to step hold back a little. Can I really do that? And it really just takes somebody like me saying, of course you can. You absolutely can.I did it. You can do it.

Analiza: Great, Nan. I love that. And I'm so happy that you grew up with a father and a family who supported you and loved you. Yeah. As well as mentors who supported you. It's a wonderful story, especially that now you're giving back to others. Maybe people haven't been as blessed with. Yeah. Mentorship and with love and so to help feed, that means a lot. Nan, with that, let's go for our lightning round questions. Ready?

Nan: Oh, okay. Alright. Shoot.

Analiza: Chocolate or vanilla?

Nan: Chocolate.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Nan: Cooking.

Analiza: Climb a mountain or jump from a plane?

Nan: Oh God. Never jump from a plane. I'm afraid of heights. Climb a mountain. I've done that.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Nan: Never. I'm a California girl. It's either barefoot, but never sand, no socks with sandals.

Analiza: How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of one to 10, 10 being Mariah Carey?

Nan: One or Zero?

Analiza: What's a good book you've read or a recent book you've read?

Nan: So I read books at several at a time. And these are the ones that I'm reading up. I'm reading By Hands Now Known Jim Crow's Legal Executioners. This was written by a colleague of mine when I was teaching at Northeastern Margaret Burnham. It's fascinating. This one, The Fraud is a novel by Zadie Smith. She's amazing. This one by Zeyn Joukhadar is The 30 Names of Knight. Also terrific. And this one, I read a lot of this kind of stuff, mysteries. Yeah, just you know, quick reads, a lot of fun. Lee Child is great and this happens to be Jack Reacher. That's a good one.

Analiza: So good. Thank you. Nan, what is a good professional development you've done?

NanL: I always go to attend a National Association of Women Judges, not only because I think that's a wonderful organization and I know so many people in it because they have such great programs. So I always tried cutting edge areas of the law that you might not have opportunities to learn about.It's just great opportunities, and at the American Bar Association, same, I'm a member there too. They also have great conferences, great educational programs, so that's probably the primary source of my outside education opportunity.

Analiza: Great. And what's your definition of a Boss Mama?

Nan: Someone who doesn't give a shit what everybody else thinks.

Analiza: Nan, what advice would you give your younger self?

Nan: I realize when you asked me that I would, I grew up so confident. Because of my parents. I just, they just gave me this sense that like I told you, my fathers, you would've could've been president of this country if you'd been born here.They really believed that. What advice would I give myself? I don't really know. I suppose it would sound good if I said, don't work so hard, play more, but I don't think I mean it. I think I play, I do play more now.

Analiza: And then where can we find you? LinkedIn. Anywhere else, Nan?

Nan: Ooh, I hope not. I try not to. Okay. But I think I am on LinkedIn. I think I am actually.

Analiza: Okay. And then last question, Nan, do you have a final ask, recommendation or any parting thoughts to share?

Nan: I don't know if it's still true. This advice certainly was true for me, but believe in yourself. Don't place limits on what you think you can reach for.If somebody, like I had a father who said, if you'd been born here, you could have been president. You need it. To believe those things about yourself and tell yourself you really can be anything you really wanna be. You might have to work really hard for it. You might have to learn some new things. You might have to try it out. Maybe you'll learn you're not, you don't love it actually as much as you thought you would. But yeah, believe in yourself.

Analiza: Beautiful. Nan, thank you for the inspiration in your stories. I appreciate you so much.

Nan: Thanks for having me.

Analiza: Thank you so much for carving out time to hear today's podcast. 3 things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, you can get a free chapter of my book, The Myth of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership at analizawolf.com/freechapter. And lastly, if you're interested in executive coaching, please reach out to me at analiza@analizawolf.com. Thank you so very much