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Episode 123 - The Truth About Equity with Celeste Warren, Former VP and Chief Diversity & Inclusion Officer at Merck

Women of Color Rise supports more diverse leaders at the table, especially women and people of color. We’ll be talking with CEOs and C-suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys.

Women of Color Rise supports more diverse leaders at the table, especially women and people of color. We’ll be talking with CEOs and C-suite women leaders of color and learning about their leadership journeys.

How can we dismantle systemic barriers while building our own leadership paths?

In this episode of Women of Color Rise, I speak with Celeste Warren, former Vice President and Chief Diversity and Inclusion Officer at Merck and author of the transformative book, The Truth About Equity. At Merck, Celeste rose through the ranks to lead DEI efforts for over 70,000 employees globally before founding her own consultancy.

Celeste identifies as a Black woman, a perspective shaped by her father, who was the first Black teacher and principal in Western Pennsylvania. She shares how watching him navigate obstacles with resilience instilled in her a "no excuses" mindset that fueled her rise in the corporate world.

She shares powerful lessons for anyone aspiring to lead and make an impact:

  • Move Past the "Self-Serving" Trap. Celeste reveals her initial hesitation to take a DEI role, fearing people would think she was only helping "her own." She eventually realized that excluding her own identity was a disservice to everyone and that true leadership means elevating all voices.

  • Understand the Ecosystem. Using her "Rocks and the Fence" analogy, Celeste explains that "acts of equity" (the rocks) are temporary supports needed because of systemic "isms" (the fence). True equity work involves both providing the rocks and dismantling the fence.

  • Shift from Pie to Bar Graph. Many fear equity because they see opportunity as a "fixed pie." Celeste challenges leaders to see opportunity as a bar graph where growth is infinite, and one person’s success doesn't require another's failure.

  • The Power of the Ripple Effect. Don't be paralyzed by the magnitude of global problems. "Boil the water" for the 2–3 people around you. When they do the same, you create a ripple effect that can eventually "boil the ocean."

  • Practice Servant Leadership. A "Boss Mama" is a leader who won't ask her team to do anything she wouldn't do herself and who protects her team with a nurturing, maternal instinct.

Analiza and Celeste discuss:

  • The Foundation of Resilience: How dinner table conversations about racial obstacles in Western Pennsylvania prepared Celeste for the C-suite.

  • The Reluctant DEI Leader: Why Celeste initially didn't want the Chief Diversity Officer role and the conversation with former Merck CEO Ken Frazier that changed her mind.

  • Navigating the "Tightrope": How to talk to people who feel equity is an attack on their own hard work or their family’s values.

  • Self-Care for the "Lock and Load" Leader: How Celeste balances her high-intensity drive with exercise, sleep, and mystery novels to stay grounded.

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Transcript

Analiza: Welcome to the Women of Color Rise podcast. I'm Analiza Quiroz Wolf, proud Filipino-American executive leadership coach and former CEO of a nonprofit and Captain in the U.S. Air Force. I'm also the author of The Myth of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership. It's based on the lessons learned by many women of color leaders, including those on this podcast. We talk with successful CEOs and C-suite women leaders of color and learn about their leadership journeys. I'm on a mission to support having more diverse leaders at the table. If you're a woman or a woman of color who wants to sit at that table, you're in the right place. Now let's get into today's show.

I'm excited to have Celeste Warren with me. She has had an almost three decade long career at Merck, a global Fortune 100 company, and she rose to the position of Vice President and Chief Diversity in Inclusion officer. She's Champion DNI, across not just Merck, but across the industry and across the globe.

I'm excited to have Celeste Warren with me. She has had an almost three decade long career at Merck, a global Fortune 100 company, and she rose to the position of Vice President and Chief Diversity in Inclusion officer. She's Champion DNI, across not just Merck, but across the industry and across the globe.

She, after retirement. She founded Celeste Warren Consulting and she continues to shape, reshape the landscape of DNI. Very, very exciting that Celeste also is the author of a book called The Truth About Equity. So I'm excited, Celeste, to dig in with you about that. Thank you so much for being here.

Celeste: Well, thank you for the invitation.

Analiza: So, list, Celeste, I always start with this question, which is how do you identify and how has that shaped your path?

Celeste: Well, I identify as well. My pronouns are, see her and I identify as a black female. And that has definitely shaped how I, my life's journey when I was a child, I'm one of five siblings and my father was the first black teacher and black principal in, um, Western Pennsylvania.

And so every day that he came home from work. My mom would ask him at the dinner table, how was your day? Normal question. And he would then proceed to talk about the challenges that he faced, the obstacles that he faced. But he didn't just talk about it to complain. He would then say, and here's what I did about it.

And so as a child, I learned that yes, there's gonna be obstacles in the way. Yes, there's gonna be barriers. Yes, yes, there are going to be challenges. But we need to make sure that we are not using that as an excuse to not be able to succeed. And that's kind of what I learned from my parents and, and just every day on, on the, on the, uh, at the dinner table.

And that shaped me throughout my entire life.

Analiza: Celeste, when you were progressing in your career, you took on eventually a very top role at a Fortune 100 company. I'm curious, as a black female, how, what, for example, what is a, a challenge that you seem to. Consistently face based on your identity. And how did you overcome that challenge?

Celeste: Oh, that's a great, great question. When I first got in the role, I was in the role for 10 years and I never really wanted to be. In that role, I was always on the succession plan for it, et cetera. I was heading up the HR organization for the manufacturing division at Merck, and I was enjoying it. I was a generalist.

I never was a specialist, and I thought, you know, I like what I'm doing because I was able to, every job that I had, I integrated. The essence of diversity, equity, inclusion into every role that I had. So having the responsibility for the HR policies, practices, procedures at the time it was 17,000 global employees in the manufacturing division.

And so I was able to integrate it into that and I was having a great time. I had a great, um, the head of, uh, the head of the manufacturing division was also a black, a black male and from the south, you know, from North Carolina. And so we had an aligned vision on diversity and inclusion. And so I never wanted to go into a role because I go into that, that chief diversity officer role because.

I felt I wouldn't, I had a great team around me. I had a great client group with me. We were able to do what we needed to do, and then stepping into the global role where there are leaders that I didn't even know, I wasn't even sure of. And I just didn't, I didn't, I didn't think, I knew that people didn't feel the same way about diversity, equity, and inclusion that I did.

They weren't passionate about it. And so I didn't, it was like, do I really wanna fight that fight? And then another thing that I used to tell, um, my boss, whenever she would bring it up to me, I'd say, you know, oh, isn't that, um, that's just so, so. What's the word? It is just, so everyone always expects the black girl to be the head of diversity and inclusion, or the woman of color, or the man of color, or the person with disabilities.

You know, it, it, it, it's always just expected and it's just, it's like, you know what, I, I, I don't wanna do that. And so one day my, uh, my boss. Called me over. It was regular one-on-one that we had. She called me over to our office and she said, look, I have to, I wanna ask you something. I know how you feel about stepping into this head of diversity and inclusion role, but we really want you to do what we really need.

Your fire in your belly, your passion, because we just don't see it. Um, progressing like we wanted to progress. And so I, I looked at her and I said, well, who's we? And she said, well, me and Ken. And Ken Frazier was the CEO at the time of, of, uh, of the company. And I thought, and she said, in fact, Ken wants to talk to you about it.

And I thought, here's my way out, because he's a busy man, he's not gonna be able to see me for probably another month or so. And by that time, I can sort of weasel my way out of this. And I said, sure, I'd love to talk to Ken. No problem. Well, she grabs my hand right then and there and walks me over to Ken's office who, who was next door to hers and he's, we sit in the office and one of the things that I was challenged with was, I'm a black female and I'm taking over this diversity and inclusion organization.

And people are just gonna be like, oh, well, isn't that sort of self-fulfilling, you know, prophecy or self-serving? Because you wanna do all you can for black females and black, black, black individuals and females because you are a black female. And so everything that you put in place, policies, practices, procedures, is gonna benefit and service you.

Your identity, people who identify the way you do. And I was really, really like, concerned with that when I first got in the role. And so, um, I ended up, actually, if you can believe this, I was doing more for other identity groups and communities than I was for my own.

Analiza: Hmm.

Celeste: And so that lasted for just a few short months.

And I sat back one afternoon and I was thinking to myself like, you are supposed to be the head of global diversity and inclusion, and you're supposed to be creating an inclusive culture for all identities. And because of how you feel, you're putting your blackness to the back so you don't feel, so, people won't feel like you're, you're sort of self, self-serving.

You're, you're doing a disservice to those of African descent around the world in this company. And so I had to really have a talk with myself and, and, and just say. You, you, uh, you need to move forward with the work that needs to be done to create a more inclusive and equitable environment for everyone.

And if people think that you're just being self-serving because of the different things that you put in place, then so be it. That's their problem. It's not yours. And so I had to have this conversation with myself and I talked to a lot of colleagues about it as well, including Ken and. Really just said, get over yourself.

You know, get over yourself and stop trying to placate what someone else may be thinking when it doesn't matter what they think about that you need to be doing this body of work and elevating the voices across all identities, not all of them, excluding your own. So yeah, that was a, that was a great question because that was something that I really struggled with as I was going in this role.

Analiza: It is interesting, Celeste, as, as both of you and I care a lot about serving people, we never, ever want to think that or other people think that we ourselves are selfish in putting ourselves first. It's mm-hmm. The antithesis is all that we stand for.

Celeste: Yes.

Analiza: So, I wanna talk about your book because your book talks about this idea of equity.

It's a chance for everyone to rise, but yet. Yet we see, well look, you're black female. You're going to be able to take advantage of that given all the work you're doing and now I'm going to lose. Or there's only one role here. It's not that there's roles for everybody. What wants a role can take that role.

There's only gonna be one or just a few. So why do we, whatever you're doing as head of D and I, that's going to hurt me. Now I'm going to push away not only me, but my children. So you've got the mama bear in there fighting that this is, this is, it's not fair and it's gonna hurt me. How do you, I know you talk about this in the book, like how do you manage that perception?

Celeste: Yes, very much so. There is a huge, huge fear that, um, something's gonna be taken away from me. Because you are giving it to other people. And I try to take it out of the sort of, there's, there's only one job or there's five jobs. 'cause jobs are gonna come and go, you know, and, and there's always gonna be, um, opportunities.

And there may be one or two now, but next week or next month, there's gonna be other opportunities, that's just the flow and ebb of an organization. But what I try to do is use the analogy that I use in the book about the rocks and the fence and, everyone's seen the analogy, but for those of your listeners that aren't familiar with it, there's an illustration.

It was created by Deloitte and it shows, in the first illustration, there's three individuals that are standing on one rock. And there's a fence in front of them. The person on the right can't see over the fence. Even with the one rock, the person in the middle can barely see over the fence. The person on the left can clearly see over the fence.

In the second illustration, the people on the right have been given additional rocks. So the person on the far right has been given two additional rocks. They have three. The person in the middle has two people on the left. One continues to still have one, but now they can all see over the fence.

In my analogy, I basically say the rocks have been acts of equity that have been put in place because the fence is there and the fence represents the isms. The longer term issues that exist within organizations and institutions and in society as a whole. That is gonna take longer term and longer time to sort of dismantle.

So I call 'em the isms, racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia. And so we have to do all of that work. But that person now, what's happening? 'cause that's causing a disruption. 'cause that person that was standing on one rock in both those illustrations, well they're looking to their right and they're saying, well how come they have three rocks?

They have two rocks and I still have one. You've given them an advantage that I don't have. And the reason why they feel that way is because they have always been able, first of all, to see over the fence. Second of all, sometimes they don't even know the fence is there. because they don't know how that fence manifests itself in behaviors and mindsets, policies and procedures that exist that are causing obstacles and barriers to his colleagues on the right.

And so while we're putting the rocks in place, the acts of equity while we're doing the longer term. Strategy, strategic work of tearing down the fence and getting rid of those isms. We have to also be having conversations with the individual to help them to understand that you had one rock in the first illustration.

You were able to overcome these obstacles created by the fence. You have one rock in the second illustration, you're still able, 'cause you've always been able to overcome it and help them to understand. How that fence manifests itself to those individuals on the right, what that looks like in behaviors, in obstacles, in mindsets and barriers.

And then get them to get in the bow, grab an ore and row, be active allies to help us to get to that third illustration where the rocks aren't needed, the fence is torn down, and everyone can see the beautiful mountains ahead. Even that individual who was standing on one rock can see not just the top of the mountains, but their aperture has been widened.

They've been. The screen has been widened for them and they can see even a broader, broader, horizon. And the problem is because they don't see the fence, they only see the rocks being given to the other colleagues. They don't understand the whole ecosystem of what's happening. And that's what I try to do.

I will try to explain that ecosystem. I try to explain that fence and what it looks like in a variety of different ways. But that illustration, when I've, whenever I've talked about it, and I've been talking about this since 2019, and, either within my organization and especially outside, and when people hear that, they're like, oh, okay.

I get it. I understand it. I understand now that I was always able to see over the fence, and it's not like something was taken away from me. You didn't take away my rock. You just gave them rocks. So there could be equal access, more equitable access to everyone while we work together to tear down and dismantle the fences.

And I also try to say, look, you know, it's not a pie. It's not a pie where there are only a finite set of resources. And I try to try to get them to think like it's a bar bar chart and the chart, the bars can go up, you know, through infinity. And, and so understanding access from that standpoint, um, is really, really important.

And, and so it's not an easy conversation by any means because you're walking this tight rope. Because you are talking about just as the things that I learned from my dinner table from my mother and father and grandparents, the things that some people were taught by their parents, by their grandparents, by their aunts and uncles at family reunions are sometimes not as inclusive as we would want them to be.

And so you're walking this tightrope as you educate and make people aware of situations. And not saying, were you challenging? What my, are you calling my mom and dad liars or this? And it's like, no, that's their belief system. I'm trying to talk to you about another belief system, another perspective, and then at the end you can choose to align yourself to whatever belief system that you feel comfortable with.

But I feel like I need to have this conversation with you. Because that disruption is happening in workforce forces and in communities around the world.

Analiza: Cel, I love your own depiction of what that rocks and fences analogy is. I've seen that multiple times, but yours is the most robust. Because I always just saw the rocks and I didn't actually understand what the fences represented.

And for this one, it was like a baseball field. But I do think,

Celeste:Yeah.

Analiza: Looking at the mountains, we all want to right, have access to the beauty of the mountains, but how might we be in this case, have a fence in front of us that prevents us from enjoying life, which I would say is God given to be able to enjoy the beauty of nature.

And I think about how you. You say, look at all of these structural issues. Well then pointing to, it's not that they're given more, it's now allowing them to see.

Celeste: Mm-hmm.

Analiza:And now we're able to compete and share and the, it's not actually a pie, it's a bar graph.

Celeste:Yeah.

Analiza: And I wanna talk about that because I live in New York City and while I love the city, it feels sometimes like a rat race.

Where it's a survival of the fittest and we learn about Darwinism and it feels like this in New York City. And so as much as I wanna say, well, everybody. Who puts in good effort and does quality work, we can all succeed. It truly is a bar graph, and yet I have the reality of where I am and how difficult it is, even for the best.

Right. Even the best of the best. So how does one, how do you talk to me, I know it's not about jobs, so I don't wanna be like, it's a job thing, but how does one, how do you narrate that? Because I know this is your specialty and people are quite senior, right? and you're talking to a lot of influential leaders.

How do you get them over that? It's not actually a pie, a fixed pie. It's a bar graph.

Celeste: Yeah. It's the difference between a fixed mindset and a growth mindset.

Analiza: Hmm.

Celeste:So a fixed mindset would be. Everything is going to stay exactly the same way that it is right now. Because in that second illustration, the reason why the rocks need to be given is because we haven't torn down the fence yet.

We're not at that third illustration. We are in a place today, in the world today and probably, for a, a, a pretty long while until we can do that work, that longer term work of tearing down the fence. And so the reality is we are in that second illustration. We are in a. rat race, we are in a place where reality is that there's the one percenters, there are the people who are still marginalized and in marginalized groups.

That's reality today. The conversation that we need to have is how do we get to tomorrow? How do we get to that third illustration? How do we work together to be able to do that? that's kind of the. The conversation that I have to have with folks. 'cause I'm a pragmatist. I'm a realist.

It's like, okay, here's where we are today. But I don't, the difference is I don't have a fixed mindset. Mm-hmm. I don't believe that we're gonna stay here.

Analiza: Mm-hmm.

Celeste: I have a growth mindset. I believe that if we put the, if we do the work, we've put the right things in place, we get the right people, that are gonna get in the boat, grab the ore.

If we do all of that work, we can get to a place that. That where everyone has access to those opportunities, we're certainly by no means there today. And so the conversation turns to trying to get them from that fixed mindset to that growth mindset. What do we need to do? What are some of the things that need to be done?

And also not to get them to a point where it's like, they're paralyzed. Like, okay, that's too much work. You're trying to boil the ocean. But it's like, I always tell people that, they'll say to me, Celeste, that's crazy. You're trying to boil the ocean. That's too much.

That's too much. And I say, no, I'm not trying to boil the ocean personally. What I'm trying to do is get people to boil two or three people around them. Once that happens, it becomes a ripple effect. You're not only affecting the two or three people around you, they're affecting two or three people around them and so on and so on and so on.

And we start, we create this ripple effect till all of a sudden we have boiled the ocean. And that's what I try to do. It's like we have a conversation around what is it that you can do on a daily basis, Mr. Or mismanage? With your team of five or six people, what are some things that you can do to help to create an equitable and fair work, workplace, or team environment with your team?

You can create your own ripple effect because then you are doing what you need to be doing with your team. Your peer managers are seeing what you need to be doing, seeing the outcomes that you're getting, and then they'll start to ask you like, what are you doing? How are you getting those outcomes? Like, that's really good.

What are you doing? You can share with them, and so on. So it starts with one person, one act, boiling. Those two or three people around them. So you can get to eventually, at some point in time, a boiled ocean. Does that make sense?

Analiza:Yes. What I like about that, Celeste, is it doesn't have to be, I've gotta save the world here I am Superman, superwoman.

Celeste: Yes.

Analiza:With my cape. And it's, no one wants to have that pressure. I mean, I don't, anyway, lemme just say I, I don't want that. I'd rather do nothing than have every, the weight of the world on me. I appreciate it because no matter who you are, what position there is work that can, we could each do, and if we each do some of the work, it can create big change.

Yeah. So I, I so appreciate the inspiration there because especially in this world now, could use, could use hope and this growth mindset. So let's, with that, let's go to lightning round questions.

Celeste: Okay.

Analiza: First question is chocolate or vanilla?

Celeste:Chocolate.

Analiza: Cooking or takeout?

Celeste: Takeout.

Analiza:Climb a mountain or jump from a plane.

Celeste: Climb a mountain.

Analiza: Have you ever worn socks with sandals?

Celeste: No, I don't think so. My kids would be mortified.

Analiza:How would you rate your karaoke skills on a scale of one to 10? 10 being Mariah Carey.

Celeste: Oh, I'm an 8. I can sing.

Analiza:What's a good book? You read a book recently or just mm-hmm. An all time favorite?

Celeste: Yeah. I'm a murder, murder mystery buff. So I am currently reading Kendra Elliot, and the book is called Her First Mistake.

But I love Mary Higgins Clark. I like Beverly Burton and Mary Barton. I love, I love good mysteries.

Analiza: What is a favorite way to practice self-care?

Celeste: For me, a good way is exercising. So I have a small exercise room in my house with a treadmill and a rowing machine. So I try to exercise at least three or four times a week and that's really, really critical.

And then secondly, getting rest, it's hard for me 'cause I am a borderline insomniac.

Analiza: Mm-hmm.

Celeste: I really cherish sleeping. and so that ritual of doing what I need to do to make sure that I can get sleep is really important. So if you're exercising, getting exercising, and then also getting good sleep, that helps with not just your physical wellbeing, but also your mental health as well.

It really helps me if I have a stressful day. Getting on the treadmill and walking is just, it's fabulous.

Analiza: What's a good professional development you've done?

Celeste: professional development, I would say. When I was going from being an individual contributor to being a manager director and having a larger organization, I went through some training there.

Another thing that is really good is understanding yourself. So any training, whether that be Myers-Briggs or the communications profiles, working styles, profiles, anything that you do that really is self-examination and then saying, how does that. how does understanding who you are, your communication style, for example, and how that translates to how you are as a leader.

I love all of that and it's so insightful and it's so helpful to make you, anyone, I think a better leader if they're receptive to the feedback.

Analiza: That's always the point. Can you become, yeah. What's your definition of a boss mama?

Celeste: A boss mama is somebody who demonstrates servant leadership.

Analiza: Mm-hmm.

Celeste: Because even though you're the boss and you, you know of whatever a family or leadership, you demonstrate servant leadership. You wouldn't do anything that you haven't done or wouldn't do yourself. And then secondly. you have this nurturing aspect to your leadership as well, and that's the mama part.

protecting your team. Helping your team nurturing and growing them, I think is really important. Just like you would with your children.

Analiza: What advice would you give your younger self?

Celeste: Relax, everything will be okay. You don't have to stress out about everything or, or, uh, be. Um, my nickname 30 years ago when I was starting in, in, at Merck, my colleagues used to call.

I was part of a big expansion and we were hired, it was like 20 of us that were hired at the same time in this organization. And, um, they, they used to nickname me, lock and Load.

Analiza: Wow. I love that. So good.

Celeste: It's like she doesn't suffer fools. And so I've learned to polish that a bit. So, um, so I can be more receptive to people. My message can be more receptive. But yeah, just be relaxed. Everything will be okay.

Analiza: Celeste, where can we find you? LinkedIn. Where else?

Celeste: Yes, you can find me on LinkedIn.

You can find me on Instagram. The Instagram handle is CRW diversity and uh, uh, I also have a YouTube channel as well. Um, and, and also on my website, www.crwdiversity.com, where you can contact me. Um, we can engage, you can find out if you are interested in speaking. If you want me to, come to your organization.

Everything can be done through my website.

Analiza: And then last question.

Celeste: haha..

Analiza: Any parting thoughts to share?

Celeste: the only parting thought would be, equity isn't a. End state equity is something that you work through and it isn't a program, it's not a television show or something. It's something, it's a journey and we all wanna get to that spa space where it's that third illustration.

But just everybody, just do the body of work, do what you can with who you can, and I guarantee you, you'll make an impact.

Analiza:Incredible. Celeste, thank you so much for this conversation. I learned a lot and I'm sure my audience can enjoy it.

Celeste: Thank you for the invitation. I love it.

Analiza:Thank you. Thank you so much for carving out time to hear today's podcast. 3 things before you go. First, if you found it helpful, please leave a five star review. Second, you can get a free chapter of my book, The Myth of Success: A Woman of Color's Guide to Leadership at analizawolf.com/freechapter. And lastly, if you're interested in executive coaching, please reach out to me at analiza@analizawolf.com. Thank you so very much